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Keeper, assuming the multiple-reality theory to be true, god would know which path one would take, just laying out all the others in a "taunting" fashion. The christian god would know which demise one would encounter, as well as acceptance or rejection, therefore still creating a soul to be damned for eternity.
Of course God would know--because every path laid before would be taken by the soul, follow? It's less a question of "God knows which you would choose" because you choose everything. God would transcend all of those realities and experience you as if you lived all choices.
Thus, God would both condemn a soul to hell and welcome it in open arms into Heaven--at the same time because *both* realities happen. He wouldn't need to know which we'd choose because we'd choose all--it's just our consciousness that is limited to only perceiving one reality.
Goodbye Callisto & Skaši, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
now how exactly could that work if upon your final judgement u were the accumulation of all realities and every path, what if there were still 5,999 of you in different realities that had not died yet?
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Creative Draft Image Manipulation Forum:::
So if there are all those different paths laid out before us and we have the chioce of which to take mmmm that sounds like free will to me. Thanks Keeper.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
well it is and it isnt, if in fact alternate realities exsist and if within those alternate realities there is infinite solutions and pathways.
and if this is true than in fact on the day of judgement you would have choosen every path and no paths at once. every wrong path every right path and no paths all at once. since your soul would transcend all of those realities.
so no matter what you choose to do within this reality, u will also chose not to. so in essence your deciding everything and nothing. and well that isnt really free will.
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Creative Draft Image Manipulation Forum:::
Sure it is you said so yourself. You choose. You choose = free will.
Thanks Nat.
Boy this is great ! All I have to do is wait long enough and you guys proove my arguement is correct !
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
Because it would not be the culmination of all realities of every path--each reality to you would be separate.
The best analogy i could give on the hypothesis is this: Take any protist organism that reproduces by dividing its cell. Genetically, they are the same. But there are two of them.
Overlapping coexistant realities would be similar--every time there's a changestate (a fork in the road, so to speak, the "soul" would divide. Each now same, but separate soul would take a path--the descsion your concious makes chooses which one you percieve, and all of the others are lost to your perception--but still happen.
While i don't believe in God, i do believe in coexisting simultaneous realities--all i'm explaining is how they are possible even for those who believe in God...
Goodbye Callisto & Skaši, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
And our conciouness takeing those different forks = free will. I'm gonna send you a cookie Keeper.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
hmmm yes that would make sense
now for each divided soul, is there a seperate god for each?
upon judgement do you reunite with these split souls? if u do not reunite do u all then have acces to heaven/hell at the same time? so there could be an infinite number of keepers in heaven and in hell?
i totally agree with alternate realities/parralel
just trying to then figure out how that would make sense in the religious sence of heaven hell judgement etc...
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I'll leave the theology for someone like Pretjah or hahaha since they are better vered in it than I, and even more releveant, they believe in it.
I would think of it like this--at the time of your death, there would be an infinite number of Nathans, but connected by the same root. They all will go to paradise or damnation based upon what each believed. All your consciousness does is choose the path to take.
In recurring lives (i don't use "past lives" because time IMHO is not linear, nor does it travel in a specific direction, it's all dominated on the path your consiousness takes), you may expeience that path again, or you may veer off, or even, say in a reccurant life, the consiousness of, say, Jackalope could or could have taken the path you have taken up to a point and then veered off in another direction to take his consiousness to a totally different destination.
To try to grasp how I look at time, picture your life like a tree, but every time you make a movement in the time axis, there are perhaps 30 different choices (based on the maximum amount of "neighboring" points that can bein a given dimension carried out in the formula N=pD+1; N=number of points thatr can be moved to, pD are the points in the previous dimension that can be moved to. I chopse this formula because it correlated up to 2 dimensions and possibly up to 3: there are two points adjacent to a gien point in a 1-dimensional object--before and after, and a 0-dimension is a single point. In a plane, this is represented by a honeycomb, or 6 adjacent points. The theory is that the model of a 3-dimensional point array would be made of 14-sided polyghedrea, and when the formula carried out to 4 dimensions, this would mean a 30-sided "hyperpolyhedra"). That can be made, so, the amount of outcomes that can happen in a person's life is 30^ power (thirty to the infinite power--since theoretically a line is made of infinite points, a plane is made of infinite lines, a space is made of infinite planes, and time is made of inifinite spaces). Now, this infinitely branced tree is intoerowven with everyone else's infinitely branched trees, but all of this happens within the 5th dimension, since "time" is theoretically curved within the 5th dimension (think a line curved in the 2nd dimension--a circle, a continuously-repeating line--no end and no beginning. a plane curved in the 3rd--a sphere, a space curved in time--a hypersphere, ad infinitum). so what you have is a 5-dimensional curve made up with intersection,. crisscrossing, and interwoven and interlinked "timelines". As such, all that can happen does happen.
I can theorize in looking at how monotheism is plausible in this scenario is this--when your consiouness "dies":, it's pulled out of the "timesphere" and God juges you, upon which you're placed back into the timesphere at a location commensurate with how he judged you--a line that would be hell if you're bad, and heaven if you're good. In my case, i think that when you "die", your line veers inside of the time shpere, and pops out at a different location within it heading in a random direction, and the cycle starts all over. I think the further you travel, the less of your memory you maintain, and dreams and the like are "echoes" of not just alternate timelines or past timelines your consciousnes had ridden, but also people's neighboring timelines.
Keep in mind, all of this is only personal theory--to me it holds true, i'm in no way, shape, or form insiutating that this is how things ARE for everything.
Goodbye Callisto & Skaši, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
hmm iono doesnt seem like it would work right in combination with a higher being.
if ur conciousness dies in this reality and then gets judged by God and placed into the appropriate hell/heaven but in a new timeline, then what happens with your loved ones that were in your reality when they get judged? what if they get placed into a heaven not in the same timeline as yours?
since there would be an infinite number of heavens and hells in order to accomodate for the infinite numbers of yourself.
i guess the only way this could work if the above sentence was true, and when u are judged and are placed in heaven or hell it is a heaven or hell that corresponds with your reality. that way everyone within your reality when judged would all go to the same heaven/hell
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Creative Draft Image Manipulation Forum:::
Nathaniel O'Flaherty wrote:since there would be an infinite number of heavens and hells in order to accomodate for the infinite numbers of yourself.
i guess the only way this could work if the above sentence was true, and when u are judged and are placed in heaven or hell it is a heaven or hell that corresponds with your reality. that way everyone within your reality when judged would all go to the same heaven/hell
This would be a good arguement for reincarnation. You'd be reincarnated based on your last life's behavior. To a timeless being, reincarnation wouldn't be anything more than continuation of the same soul.
Good people would be reborn as children of wealthy caring parents in Beverly Hills.
Bad people are reborn as children of people who love living Cleveland.
If you're totally rotten to the core, you're reborn in a place where there's violence, poverty, famine and general contempt for the human race... Pittsburgh!
.
John Wilken
2002 Cavalier
2.2 Vin code 4
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Regardless of how this is looked at, it is still not proving free will.
A being with infinite knowledge, knowing the path of every branch, every twig, every dimension, would then know the result of that being at the time of judgement.
As such, every act is known before it occurs, so what you think is "free will" is nothing more than a fallacy.
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I would think of it like this--at the time of your death, there would be an infinite number of Nathans, but connected by the same root. They all will go to paradise or damnation based upon what each believed. All your consciousness does is choose the path to take....
I can theorize in looking at how monotheism is plausible in this scenario is this--when your consiouness "dies":, it's pulled out of the "timesphere" and God juges you,
Judged based on the path that the consciousness took, which the xian god had foreknowledge of... still not seeing free will here.
<sigh> this may take awhile to explain...give me a day or two to figure out a way to word it
Goodbye Callisto & Skaši, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
I understand your theory, the correlation between it and free-will is lacking. I'll be patient though.
In my short span of a lifetime of 20years ive been through alot its seems yet i know its nothing compared to many. I have attended church for many years up until recently. I think church is the biggest load of spooge on someones forehead. But to the reality of whether god exists or not i can say that i dont believe that their is a supreme being but i know that in my heart i will always belive that their is something more out their. if you look at human existence its mostly just pathetic. We have come across large feats but it seems that humans always destroy the good things they create. You may not be able to prove the existence of god but what harm is it doing if you do believe in god. I think the bible is a load and the 10 commandments are just decent ruels/morals to live buy any person with a shred of dignity in them will abide them.
"I'd rather live like there is a God and find out there isn't, than to live there isn't a God and find out there is."
*2012 mazdaspeed3*
Ok Fine, you drew me into this again
I will quote a different appologist as I would say something similar, but it would take me hours to write it.
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Conscienceness is only possible if there is intelligence. Intelligence is only possible if there is thought. Thought is only possible if there is choice. Choice is only possible if there is free will. If there is no free will then we could not be aware of ourselves or others. Since we are aware of ourourselves and other, and can think and choose, there must be free will.
One must then ask where does free will originate? Intelligence can not arrive from non-intelligence and thought can not come from thoughtlessness. Conscienceness can not arrive out of unconsciencess. How can free will arrive out of no will? It can't. What is its source then? If matter is just that, matter, then all of the above must be of non-matter. (Can a lump of mud act, think, choose, feel, and express?). All of the above traits act on or through matter but not by matter. The collection of all of these traits above is what one might call the "soul."
But this still fails in answering where does 'it' come from. 'Soul' (intelligence, free will, conscienceness, thought,etc.) must come from 'soul'. The first 'soul' must be self-sustaining, non-created, and eternal...another words, 'God.'
It's really not all that complicated. Everyone like to confuse issues and make things difficult, it's not. I can say simply that you chose to read this of your own free will.
PAX
wow im sorry but that is horribly written. and proves absolutely nothing besides the fact he doesnt understand the concept of alternate realities or a God who has already seen all time and all "choices"
in a few minutes I MIGHT get up and go to the bathroom. right now I am unsure of what I will "choose"
however God ALREADY knows what I have "chosen" and the outcome of that choice because all time past present and future has already happened to God.
so while I may FEEL like I am making a concious free will choice, I am inded not because the "choice" and the outcome has already been seen and has already happened. It seems as though i can freely choose to go or not to go. however, i am not freely choosing this because I have actually already made the "choice" and that choice has been seen already.
the only way you could preserve that there IS absolute free will, is if God has not already experienced all time and has not already seen all choices made. if the previous statement is true than free wil is true. if it is false than free will is false.
you have to get past the fact that just because to a mortal being who can only experience linearity in time, that time is not linear, time is in all directions all the time, and if a being has experienced all time, that the free will percieved by us through linearity of time is not the reality.
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I'll try and find the news story about a little boy who said he was a fighter pilot in WW II and was shot down over I believe it was Germany. Anyway the parents just thought it was his imagination but he had such detail it started to bother them. He had a made up name, rank, serial number, complete past, and everything. So one day mom decieded to do some checking on the internet and what she found floored her. Her son's made up name and identity was that of a missing WW II fighter pilot lost over Germany and believed dead. She contacted the mans younger sister who still is alive and told her about this, at first as you can imagine the sister was very mad and thought it a hoax till she spoak to the boy on the phone. He knew her old nick name that only her big brother called her, he knew the name of the dog they had growing up, he knew everything. They aranged a meeting and upon seeing the older women the little boy ran up to her huged her crying and said he was finaly home. Now is this proof of reincarnation? Who knows but how else could this be explained?
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
Okay, this is what i can come up with for the free will conundrum.
Kardain: try to look at it from this angle:
Everything choice you can make, you do make.
Your conciousness chooses which choise youer perception lives out.
Now, this is where free will comes into play, and i'll form this into a question: How do you know you're on the main "line" of your consciousness and not a chouise that your *real* conciousness didn't take?
The bottom line as i see it--there is not "real" consiousness, nor is there only one. You might consider it a "splitting off", but to the other consiousness,it would feel it's the "right" one as you feel you are.
It's a tough concept to grasp, but it will lend credence (i can't prove any of this) to free will.
Now, as for the reason why god would knowingly create a path that would take a soul to hell--my only answer to that would be that God would have to keep the balance of Good and Evil--but that kinda shoots thw whole kind god thing in the foot. Still, i'll leave that argument up to the theologians here.
Another paradox is this: consider that every consiouness that splites off of the one you experience beleievs that your memories are it's own, and that they are sunject to the same.
And yes, i know this can give a headache.
Goodbye Callisto & Skaši, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
Is all I can say. Other then my head hurts now.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
everyone has diff views and oppinions
but kotl i dont see in any way how that give validity and explanation of free will and its existence or not.
--
jack about reincarnation
i really dont understand it. i have done a ton of reading and i just cant grasp it. it makes sense that it could happen, since no matter can ever be destroyed or created. all matter that ever was will forever be. so since thoughts and memories are indeed matter it could make sense that sometimes when someone dies their matter does not completely get scattered into randomness, that somehow it could be possible that whole parts of that matter stay together.
its really mind bogling trully. very hard to grasp the very basic ideas of it.
and since i have such trouble just trying to understand how it could possibly work i reserve judgement on wether it exists or not.
the same way I am unsure of a higher being.
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okay, let me back up and try this from another angle:
If all of your possibilities are laid out before you--and they amount to an infinite number, you have the free will to chose which path you--rather your consciousness takes.
Of all the possiblities that you don't take, your conscousness still takes them, but you don't percieve them because are consiousnesses are not wired to handle multiple coexisting realities.
Assuming God exists, God would naturally know what paths you would take, but since you consiusness is on multiple coexisting realities, but you can only percieve one of the--the one you take, you still have full free will.
Couple this with the fact that every path not taken is still your consiousness choosing that path, but being imperceiveable to you, means that there is no "dominant" consiousness--they are all weighed equally, so-to-speak.
That part shout answer Kardains' question--except about the part of "why would God create a path upon which a consiousness would damn itself." My pointwas proving that it's possible that God can exist and we can still have free will--that Question is on the nature of God, which i'm not trying to adress.
Onto yours: One of the points of my argument is a very simple one: All that is was and will be (Conservation of Matter/Energy), but it doesn't necessarily have to be in the same state that it is in, was in, or will be in. Taking this into consideration, you have to look at the system of the universe en masse to realize that there is always conservation--even though we use erroneus terms like, "energy lost to friction as heat", for example. The energy wasn't lost, it just turned into heat which is still around, just not in the given system that you're looking at.
As such, when a person dies, all that is their "soul" is never lost. What happened to it? A theory is that a persons memories are patterns within the energy of a person's soul, and if a person begins a new path of life and the neergy retains those patterns, you have what we call reincarnation. It's also possible that there could be "leakage" into other quantums of soul energy and possible dissipaion of the patterns.
just a theory, i could be wrong
Goodbye Callisto & Skaši, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
i know about conservation of matter/energy. and i understand how reincarnation could definitely be possible because of this. ive done alot of reading on it.
when i was saying i didnt understand it, i misworded that. i understand how it "can" work, i have trouble "realizing" , accepting, that this could be going on.
basically on the same level as my view of a God. there definitely "could" be a God. however wrapping your brain around the ins and outs and what all of that means if there is, leaves me at a point where i understand how their could be and understand how there couldnt be. and the same goes for reincarnation.
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Nat, The basics of reincarnation are that all souls are recycled and we've been here before.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
