If Jesus did not exist and do the things they say he did. Then why is name and the stories of Jesus carried on for so long. Over 2000 years, there's proof that Jesus healed and did miracles, there's proof He lived, there's proof He died, and there's PROOF that He rose again. The Apostles witnessed His resurrection; they witnessed his crucifixion and they witnessed the miracles performed by Jesus Christ. How is healing the blind science? That can't be done in today's time. I've never seen anyone bring some from the dead back to life. Those are all miracles performed from Jesus, now you prove to me that it DIDN'T happen.

FireCav98 wrote:If Jesus did not exist and do the things they say he did. Then why is name and the stories of Jesus carried on for so long. Over 2000 years, there's proof that Jesus healed and did miracles, there's proof He lived, there's proof He died, and there's PROOF that He rose again. The Apostles witnessed His resurrection; they witnessed his crucifixion and they witnessed the miracles performed by Jesus Christ. How is healing the blind science? That can't be done in today's time. I've never seen anyone bring some from the dead back to life. Those are all miracles performed from Jesus, now you prove to me that it DIDN'T happen.

u misunderstand.

jesus DID live most definitely. there is NO doubt in that.

for thousands of years humans thought that earthquakes were caused by angry gods stomping the god sized feet. they believed that at any point when someone dies suddenly it was because apollo decided to shoot an arrow at that person.

for thousands of years buhdists believe that reincarnation happens.



so while it may very well be possible that reincarnation happens or that jesus was of divine nature and could perform god like abilities. it def could be.

however the possibility does not = proof/fact

period.






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FireCav98 wrote:If Jesus did not exist and do the things they say he did. Then why is name and the stories of Jesus carried on for so long....

Take Greek mythology as well as Egyptian religions. Those have been around longer than xianity. There's no proof that any of those beings existed. You show me where the River Styx is, and I'll give you a nice shiny quarter.

Also, if someone walked up to me claiming that they are Jesus, I'd be all and probably call the padded wagon on them.

FireCav98 wrote:It's not going to matter to you because you'll never understand until you start thinking outside the box.

Ahh, here we go.... you want me to think "outside the box"

Take the book of Revelation. That book is prophesing the end of days. The how, when (as claimed by some people), and why. Since that time is not yet here, would you not agree that no amount of "free will" will prevent that situation from occuring? Your god dictated that this is how its going to happen, so according to the bible, the world's pretty much @!#$ed, is it not?

Also take into account the rapture. Your teachings are of the mentality that people such as yourself must go out and "convert" people to your religion. Sounds like a cult to me. What of those folks that live so remotely that they never even heard of the christian "faith" (ie, cannibals). Since they do not believe the same that you do, would they not as well end up in an eternity of hell? What of ancient civilizations such as Mayan culture that was not influenced by any christian teachings? Would they, too, go to hell? And why would your god, being perfectly good, allow that to happen?

a mass majority of the New Testament was written hundred of years after Jesus lived. what you're reading in the New Testament about Jesus healing the sick is not first hand knowledge.
he said/she said is by no means proof that he healed the sick. I'm not saying he didn't, but there's no absolutes saying that he did.

the reason why I'm not going to go through this here is because I'm not going to be the one that disrupts someones faith... something that makes them happy.




Desert Tuners

“When you come across a big kettle of crazy, it’s best not to stir it.”

If Christianity is a cult, so is Athesim. That individuals FREE WILL condemns them to hell not God. God gives you a mind to think freely, gives you resources to learn/know the gospel - in the end, it's YOUR choice whether you'd like to get to know God, it's your choice if you decide to murder, your choice to commit adultery, etc. The rules/guidelines are found in the bible. The bible is the LAW of man so to speak.

Let's say your driving, the speed limit posted is 55 and you're doing 70 and you get caught. It's your OWN fault because you know the law, you know the speed limit, yet you speed anyway and broke the law. You now go to court and you're punished. It works the same with God. You can break the LAW of God and think there's no punishment. Obey what's being taught to you and you're reward, disobey and there's punishment. That simple..not that hard to grasp.

Answer me this. .if God did not create mankind or the universe, what did? Because I would surely like to know.

FireCav98 wrote:If Christianity is a cult, so is Athesim. That individuals FREE WILL condemns them to hell not God. God gives you a mind to think freely, gives you resources to learn/know the gospel - in the end, it's YOUR choice whether you'd like to get to know God, it's your choice if you decide to murder, your choice to commit adultery, etc. The rules/guidelines are found in the bible. The bible is the LAW of man so to speak.

God does NOT give every man the resources to LEARN God. it was only with the advent of easier transportation that ones with no knowledge of God could learn. and even then only those who could/can afford to travel to an area or person who could teach them

what of those people in the past that had no opportunity to learn God. what happens to them?

Quote:


Let's say your driving, the speed limit posted is 55 and you're doing 70 and you get caught. It's your OWN fault because you know the law, you know the speed limit, yet you speed anyway and broke the law. You now go to court and you're punished. It works the same with God. You can break the LAW of God and think there's no punishment. Obey what's being taught to you and you're reward, disobey and there's punishment. That simple..not that hard to grasp.

if humans needed to be "taught" how not to get punished by God then why did God wait THOUSANDS of years after intelligent humans were forming civilizations? let the dwell in what would later be taught as sin? why not give this human law out when humans most needed it (as we were first developing)

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Answer me this. .if God did not create mankind or the universe, what did? Because I would surely like to know.

the possibility that the UNVERISE always exsisted in the same manner u would argue that God always exsisted.

for you there need not be an explanation for how GOD came into exsistence/always was always will be.

that exact same mind set can be applied to a possibility that the universe itself and all matter all everythign just always has, in the same manner u would like to believe God always has.


u cant in the same breathe claim that God always has and was not FROM something and always will be, but deny that something other than God could be the same. it is contradictory thought and closed minded.




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The resources to learn God are presented all around you all the time. You have churches that preach the Gospel, God sends messengers through us, Christians, to relay the Gospel to you, but there goes that free will again.

Back in those days, people knew what sin was. People of those days understood the difference between right and wrong. Are you assuming that people of that time didn't know what sin was? If so, then you're being closed minded.

And again, you NEVER did answer my question. If God did prove Himself, what would you do then?

FireCav98 wrote:The resources to learn God are presented all around you all the time. You have churches that preach the Gospel, God sends messengers through us, Christians, to relay the Gospel to you, but there goes that free will again.

Back in those days, people knew what sin was. People of those days understood the difference between right and wrong. Are you assuming that people of that time didn't know what sin was? If so, then you're being closed minded.

So, by converting people from a religion or belief that they are accustomed to and have been practicing for ages is free will? Sounds like its the contrary.

"Believe in my god or you will go to hell..."

Sums it up nicely, doesn't it?

What Nathaniel and I was referring to about ancient times is this:

Quote:

I am the lord, your god. Thou shalt not have any other gods before me..."

1st commandment of the christian faith. Your religion teaches that a violation of the commandments without repentance to the christian god is a one-way ticket to eternal torment. Because those cultures either are too remote to know of the christian faith, or were/are not influenced by it in the development of said culture, they are destined to go to hell. Your god knows that. They have no say in anything otherwise. They have no free will to choose otherwise.

FireCav98 wrote:
And again, you NEVER did answer my question. If God did prove Himself, what would you do then?

I did, but it is seeming that not answering questions is mutual. I'll refer back to my question on the book of Revelation that was so conveniently evaded... But as for the question above...

I wrote:Also, if someone walked up to me claiming that they are Jesus, I'd be all and probably call the padded wagon on them.

Nate.. You had to do this, didn't you?




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

Kardain wrote:

FireCav98 wrote:The resources to learn God are presented all around you all the time. You have churches that preach the Gospel, God sends messengers through us, Christians, to relay the Gospel to you, but there goes that free will again.

Back in those days, people knew what sin was. People of those days understood the difference between right and wrong. Are you assuming that people of that time didn't know what sin was? If so, then you're being closed minded.

So, by converting people from a religion or belief that they are accustomed to and have been practicing for ages is free will? Sounds like its the contrary.

"Believe in my god or you will go to hell..."

Sums it up nicely, doesn't it?

What Nathaniel and I was referring to about ancient times is this:

Quote:

I am the lord, your god. Thou shalt not have any other gods before me..."

1st commandment of the christian faith. Your religion teaches that a violation of the commandments without repentance to the christian god is a one-way ticket to eternal torment. Because those cultures either are too remote to know of the christian faith, or were/are not influenced by it in the development of said culture, they are destined to go to hell. Your god knows that. They have no say in anything otherwise. They have no free will to choose otherwise.

I'm too lazy to separate the quotes......

But you do realize that you are absolutely correct, and I see no reason to prove you otherwise. Heaven and Hell were both destinations set forth by God for followers of his word and for non-followers. You can still go to Church and call yourself a Christian and still be damned to Hell for eternity. It's inevitable if you don't follow his word that you will go to Hell.

The point of Heaven is not to be basked in all of the material glory like sunshine filled, torture free days, Heaven was created as a way for you to eternally worship your creator. It was created as.. in a sense.. to meet your maker.

If you don't believe in God's word and sin without repentance, then why would you want to go to Heaven? You say that if you don't believe in God, you will go to hell... if you don't want to believe in him, then that should be a good thing for you because you can be away from him for all eternity.

And also, every culture has the right to learn the word of God. When you die you automatically go to Judgement, where you must stand in front of God while he tells you the sins you have committed. If you lived in Africa and had no way at all to learn the word of God, that's when you can accept God at judgement and be saved, or you can deny him and go to Hell.

If you have been a sinner and turned your back on God all of your life, but finally during judgement repent and actually truly mean it, you can still be saved (I use this term loosely because most people knows what it means, but I don't like to use it because I don't like people to think that they are horrible, unforgivable people if they don't believe in God).

MiKeDiRnTRuLeZ wrote:If you lived in Africa and had no way at all to learn the word of God, that's when you can accept God at judgement and be saved, or you can deny him and go to Hell.

If you have been a sinner and turned your back on God all of your life, but finally during judgement repent and actually truly mean it, you can still be saved (I use this term loosely because most people knows what it means, but I don't like to use it because I don't like people to think that they are horrible, unforgivable people if they don't believe in God).

Why would one that lives in the remote area upon "meeting the maker" accept the christian god when they had no prior knowledge of its existance (and I use that term loosely as well...)? Would they not reject it as being blasphemous to their own belief? Upon such, be banished to hell. Still no free will as the christian god would have known that "person x" will reject its salvation at the pearly gates, thereby banishing one's self to hell.

I still am not seeing a solid corellation of free will being the answer to "Why would god create a soul that it knows will be damned for eternity?"

GAM, this is quite tame compared to the last religion debate thread I was involved in... it's mainly staying on one track.

I'm surprised at how many times the bible has been used in this thread. The Bible was written by man, not God.

Narcissistic self-quote:

John Wilken wrote:The basis for most religions is communicated through hermeneutic strategy. Rather than just say "Do this, don't do that", they wrote stories to communicate what happens when people act or think a certain way. These stories were written by people, with the education of the time. If the birth of Christ happened today, the story would read "There was no room at the Ramada, so they had to spend the night at the homeless shelter on 55th and Broadway". Jesus wouldn't have been born in a manger, it would have been on a dirty cot next to the soup kitchen. The three wisemen would have brought travelers checks, a cell phone and a laptop computer with a wi-fi connection. Judas would have sold out Jesus for a new BMW. Jesus wouldn't have been crucified, he would have been given the electric chair by Judge Pontius Pilot. Imagine wearing a small chair on your necklace...

The stories aren't meant to be taken literally, they are lessons to teach acceptable social behavior. Science can disprove every chapter in the Bible and it still doesn't disprove the existance of God.

Christianity was a cult, it was started with 13 people about 2000 years ago. Discussing the Christian Bible in relation to the existance of God is basically stating that God didn't exist until about 2000 years ago.

Quoting the Bible to those who question the existance of God is like pointing at a television to prove the existance of humans. Television is the invention of humans, but humans have been around much longer than TV. The Bible is neither proof nor disproof of God's existance.




.


John Wilken
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Kardain: I'd rather keep my ideas to myself on religion...



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

Sometimes, I don't blame ya... for the most part I keep opinions to myself, save a couple aspects of religion in general. One being free will...

FireCav98 wrote:The resources to learn God are presented all around you all the time. You have churches that preach the Gospel, God sends messengers through us, Christians, to relay the Gospel to you, but there goes that free will again.

so in the year 1,000 ad after the begining of christianity, you are saying that all people everywhere had equal access to learn about the christian faith?

Quote:


Back in those days, people knew what sin was. People of those days understood the difference between right and wrong. Are you assuming that people of that time didn't know what sin was? If so, then you're being closed minded.

why would i think people didnt know right from wrong and where did u draw upon this conclusion of me?

Quote:


And again, you NEVER did answer my question. If God did prove Himself, what would you do then?

never once have i ever said God does not exsist other than the purposely inflamatory topic title i made.

i neither confirm nor deny the possibility of a God. I accept both possibilities as equal and question both equally in a effort to further understand life itself. rather than closing my mind off to an entire array of enriching questions by blindly believing without attempting to fully understand.


If there is a God upon my day of judgement, there will be no fault in me that i did not practice His faith.

for everyday of my life, I attempt to live as right as I can. I need not services to make me a right minded person nor do i need a preacher to tell me what is right and wrong for i know what is right and wrong within me, since after all, if there is a God I am made in his image and likeness.

and if this God who sit and judge me faults me for not worshipping him, although i lived my life as right as possible, than i would hardly call him "my God" and would NOT want to spend eternity worshipping a being who condemns GOOD RIGHT people for the simple fact of not WORSHIPPING Him.









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GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:Nate.. You had to do this, didn't you?

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Nathaniel O'Flaherty wrote:and if this God who sit and judge me faults me for not worshipping him, although i lived my life as right as possible, than i would hardly call him "my God" and would NOT want to spend eternity worshipping a being who condemns GOOD RIGHT people for the simple fact of not WORSHIPPING Him.

well said.


Desert Tuners

“When you come across a big kettle of crazy, it’s best not to stir it.”

If Jesus was not who he said to have been then why is he the single most important person in history ? In the 2000 or so years since his death who else before him or after him has changed the world we live in so much ?




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.

Exactly, Jackalope. Why is there so much turmoil and controversy whenever we speak of Jesus? You don't hear anything of King Tut, Pharaoh or anyone else back in those times or before that. In all the world, Jesus Christ is either the most loved to some and most hated name and why is that?

John Wilken, the words of the bible are not of man but from God passed along to man to be recorded.

Not only that FireCav98 but what one man has changed the world we live in so much?




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.

Wait........HATED ? Who would hate someone who preached peace ? Thats stupid.




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.

Okay, time to chime in...

For starters, the one that sutck out to me...

Quote:

Answer me this. .if God did not create mankind or the universe, what did? Because I would surely like to know.

That could be drawn back to this conundrum: If God created the known and unknown universe, than what created God? The answer is usually "God always was and always will be." Then couldn't the same be said about the Universe? Again, you're dealing with two things that can be both partially proven and partially disproven in the same breath, so choose your faith.

A lot of this debate is the simple fact that things can't be proven, nor can they be disproven. You can't prove Jesus had divine powers nor can you prove he didn't. You can't rpove God exists any more than you can prove he doesn't. You can't prove God's omnipotence any more than you can disprove it. You cannot prove the universe was created at some point in existance any more than you can prove that all that is was an will be (just not in the same state it always was). Hence, Both science and religion (despite not being mutually exclusive) BOTH rely on faith in things that can't be proven.

Again, choose what makes sense to you and what gets you through the night--and realize that it doesn't work for everyone else.

Quote:

If Christianity is a cult, so is Athesim.

ALL organized religions are cults by definition. Even those that claim to not be. I think the greater crime against humanity is not the whole "my God is better than your God" debate, but the fact that people actually believe and accept the fact that someone who claims to be enligtened--no matter what God, Gods, or face of God (including ourselves--which nails Atheism and Agnosticism when taken in the organized religion sense) tells them that what they believe is right for everyone when they have not walked an inch, much less 5000 miles in the shoes of the people they are preaching to.

Everyone is different, everyone has different circumstance that makes them what they are, and hence, the beliefs and truths one holds will be different than the ones you hold. If you cannot accept that fact, the one with faith problems is not them, it's you. This applies both to the people that shove their religion down people's throats, and the ones that get butt-hurt when someone says they will invoke a rite of good will towards you in their own religion--i.e. praying for you (and no, the last isn't directed at anyone in particular)..

Back to free will.

Nathan/Kardain. The argument that God being omnipotent and free will exists is actually a simple one, if you think about it. If everything that happens does happen, but our consciousness can only experience one path of existance, then the free will comes in to play because we chose the path that we percieve--God would know everythign that does and can happen (which would ne an infinite number of outcomes and possibilities), but you experience only one of the outcomes. The rest happens, but you're unaware of them.

Think about it like this. For simplicity's sake, picture life and all the possible outcomes like a tree. You start at the base, and you'll end up at the tip of one of the branches. You only know of one path, the path that you take from the base to the tip of the branch, but every path along every branch does happen, you just don't take that path. God would know all of those paths and outcomes, but you would only experience one. Hence Free Will.

Not that I believe in God's existance, but i see that as a possibility, however implausible. So, in an answer to your question, Kardain: God creates a soul with an infinite or near infinite amount of possible outcomes to the end of the soul's life. An infinite amount of those go to heaven, an infinite amount go to purgatory, and an infinite amount go to hell (for simplicity's sake, let's stick to Christian belief--although everything that can happen happens with an infinite amount of timeslines). And yes, you can divide infinity into any number and have an infinite amount of possibilities in each selection set . Anyhow, all opf those outcomes are avaliable to the soul, so theoretically, God creates a soul that will both go to heaven and hell--the consciousness of the soul chooses which of those paths to follow.

Onto relativistic belief:

As has been said, Heaven is an eternal reqard for Christians, Hell is eternal damnation for Christians. Without saying that everyone won't be judged by the Christian God (Implausible but possible), It's also possible that we're all judged based upon whatever we personally believe. If you're good and at peace with your soul, whatever your concept of "heaven" happens, and if you're bad and ill with your soul, whatever damnation you believe in happens. As such, It's possible--however unlikely, that if God exists, God may judge everyone by a different litimus--Buddhists that are good experience Nirvana, while Christians go to heaven. Goes somewhat off hahaha's "different fingers same hand" theory, and expounding on the "it doesn't matter what faith you follow as long as you have faith" theory.

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In the 2000 or so years since his death who else before him or after him has changed the world we live in so much ?

Time will tell, but i think the inventor of the TV, the inventer of the Atomic Bomb, Hitler, Mother Theresa, and the inventor of the electric guitar come to mind.


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

Jackalope wrote:If Jesus was not who he said to have been then why is he the single most important person in history ? In the 2000 or so years since his death who else before him or after him has changed the world we live in so much ?

jesus is one of the largest names in history as american people know it. however go to other cultures and jesus is NOT.

dalai lama
buddha
muhammed
etc...

and then u can move on to "normal" people who have changed the entire world as we know it.

einstein
hawking
newton
galileo
columbus
martin luther king

i can go on and on a list of names that changed the entire world.

and just because jesus's name is so well known and inspired a religion with both compassion and much brutality, does not mean he indeed had divine powers. as i said before i have no doubt jesus was a trully great man, however i do question his "miracle" working because at the time of christ many things were considered GREAT miracles that are so utterly basic to us now.




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Keeper, again your trying to understand the infinite with our finite minds...... wont work.
I'm not saying your not a deep thinker but we just can't think deep enough.

Nat, Not quite. Its not just American culture Jesus has had an influence in. Try the whole of Europe in the middle east and for that matter all over the world. And thos you named its true are important. But of those you listed how many of their births and deaths are celebrated around the world ? I won't venture to know but I'd guess not many. Nope Jesus is the single most influential figure in history. i know you may not like that fact but it still remains one.




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.

oh i dont care who is most influential. it doesnt matter to me. but it is ludacrous that BECAUSE he is influential is being used as proof that he had divine powers...




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