Jackalope wrote:God does not need to be proved to anyone.
While you may think that, there are people that require the proof. To them, no proof = no god.
I was waiting for the words free will to come in to play.
The only people that can have free will are those that do not believe in a higher power that is all-knowing.
To believe in the christian god is to embrace all aspects of it, including divine foreknowledge. As such, there cannot be free will.
You have no idea of what you speak sir. I do not believe that only one form of religion is correct as such that means I am not a Catholic. I believe in aspects from most of the religions are correct and there for should be respected and valued. And yes you do have free will. You are free to believe in God or not, it matters not to him. He exists weather you believe or not. Free will.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
And John I can atest to that !!
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
A few things to comment on--starting with the easiest:
Cham--i don't believe i ever asked you to prove God to me.
Jack--Proof of God (on the personal truth level and not on the universal fact level) is a definite prerequisite to believing in God in the first place. Anyone that believes in God has personal proof (a proof that cannot be shared with someone else because it's based soley on experience and not on a tangible fact--not that it matters to the believer
) that God exists...otherwise, why would you believe in something that doesn't exist--at least in an avatar-like form (i.e Santa Claus and the avatar for what the Christmas spirit should be)? As such, Somelone like, for example, Kardain would need something to prove God exists in order to believe in him--maybe a spiritual awakening like Cham, and Hahaha, and you have had. Otherwise, on the pesronal level--God is an intangible and not something in your heart you know to Be.
That I believe is what Kardain says when he means that some of us need proof. Skeptics without experince will not believe based on the word of someone else.
Hahaha: The burden on your statement about animals and morality can't be proven untill we can actually get inside the mind of an animal and key in on the entirety of it's perception. But even so, looking at the beavior of many animals, i would personally find it erroneus to assume they don't have some "code" of behavior, being instict or otherwise, that dominates their behavior pattern. Further, not ever specie has a "kill or be killed" mindset. After all, we often see packs of animals stake out a territory and kill each other when one infringes on the other...Kinda remains me of humanity in a way
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Goodbye Callisto & Skađi, Hello Ishara:
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The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
Well said Keeper. Even tho you do not believe in God you do know that those who do cannot be questioned as to their faith. And those who can did have any to begin with.
I applaud you for even tho you doubt you do not try and assert your doubts on others. Well done Keeper, well done in deed.
While I believe in God I believe that no organized religion is 100% correct so I do not even try to undermine others beliefs rather I respect all beliefs. Well within reason.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
KOTL wrote:Cham--i don't believe i ever asked you to prove God to me.
I just read over my comment, I didn't mean to appear rude if thats the way it came off. I was just saying that its not going to happen. Too often has it been tried and everybody seems to leave simply angry and nothing more.
"Speak the truth, and leave immediately after"
"The urge to save Humanity is almost ALWAYS a false front for the urge to rule"
"He who knoweth things as they are and not as they are said or seem to be, he truly is wise, and is taught of God more than of men."
No worries Cham. I was trying to clarify that i wasn't asking you to
And thanks Jack. And i understand the "within reason." If someone worships chutney and i'm hungry, sorry, i'm going to scarf it.
Goodbye Callisto & Skađi, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
Jackalope wrote: You have no idea of what you speak sir. I do not believe that only one form of religion is correct as such that means I am not a Catholic. I believe in aspects from most of the religions are correct and there for should be respected and valued. And yes you do have free will. You are free to believe in God or not, it matters not to him. He exists weather you believe or not. Free will.
I should have added the free will portion wasn't directed towards you, but rather addressing the group as a whole.
This part, however...
Those that do not believe in the xian god, or any religion that teaches divine foresight are the only ones that have free will. One that solely follows a single religion must embrace the entirety of that religion, not pick and choose as they see fit, otherwise there is a flaw in their belief.
You take a different approach. While you believe in a "higher power" there is no specific belief. However, if your version of a "higher power" has any shred of divine foresight, you have now negated your free will. The only approach that you can take to recover your free will is to deny existance of divine foresight.
Because I believe in a God does not mean I do not have free will. I am free to believe or not. But as I do believe I do not follow any pre determined religion because religions are ALL man made. And I follow no man blindly anywhere. Can God see the future? I certainly don't know I'm just a man and can not comprehend what God does or why. It would be like me asking you to give the exact measurement of the universe in square inches and for you to be able to grasp such an in-numeral number. It can not be done. As such I do not ask anyone to try and explain their beliefs in a scientific manor
because I know not what the universe measures.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
Jackalope wrote:Because I believe in a God does not mean I do not have free will. I am free to believe or not. But as I do believe I do not follow any pre determined religion because religions are ALL man made. And I follow no man blindly anywhere.
Yes, faith and religion are separate practices.
You can follow all the rules of a religion and have no faith.
You can have faith in a higher power and follow no religion.
<wiseass alert>
Oh, and Jackalope, I've checked for you. The exact measurement of the universe is this:
It's 1 universe wide by 1 universe high by 1 universe deep.
Total volume, 1 cubic universe.
There, now you know!
</wiseass>
.
John Wilken
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Jack, your stance follows a unique approach where:
Quote:
I believe in aspects from most of the religions are correct and there for should be respected and valued
Before I continue, I will pose a question.
Do you believe that your god is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent? (all knowing, all powerful, and ever present)
Hes not "my God" I don't go to church, I do read the bible ( its an interesting read )
I've started to read the Koran ( spelling? ) and I've looked at Budism and a few other religions. Most have the same BASIC underlying theme and that is to treat all others how you would want to be treated. If this one simple thing could be done this would be a far better world to live in. And in answer to your question..... I've never really given it much thought. All religions teach God knows all and is everywhere all the time.
Heres an easy way for you to think of it cause I can see your struggeling with this. Think of God as someone who is asleep and we are his dream. True this opens it up for more debateing such as what happenes to us should he wake?
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
well one interpretation could be that you could believe your god is ALL knowing.
but all knowing could mean, that he knows everything that happens the SECOND it happens. NOT before. thus leaving open the ability of man to have free will. but god still knowing all.
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OK.. One more time.. Everything is simultanious to an infinite being. God created time, therefore it has no impact on God, only he on it. God does not dwell in time the way we do. He may know what you will do "before" you do it, but that's because of simultanious causation, for God there is no "before" or "After" because he is both. He is the Alpha and the Omega. It is difficult for those who insist there is no free will to accept the fact that there is free will and God knows what you will do. That's because God is aware of all possiblities as God exists outside of time. It's not a prediction or foreknowledge, there IS NO TIME ELEMENT influencing God.
I don't know how to make it any clearer.. God made time, for us, so we could keep track of things and not become terribly confused.. God does not follow constraints of time because God exists with or without it. Everything has already happened, or is happeneing simultaneously.
No past, no present, no future, no time, therefore no predictions, no pre-destiny, no before and no after.
PAX
/\ /\ /\ Well said HAHA. That is how God has always been and always will be. I've said it before and I'll say it again. God is infinite and we can not understand the infinite with our finite minds.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
yes hahaha that very well may be, what you believe "your" God is.
however the same way i can not say God did NOT create time, you cant say He did. rather only u believe He did, within your particular belief system.
while time may not govern your God Himself, He has to be affect by it, since time is in motion as we speak. it is not possible to be in a place of timelessness and be timeless yourself and yet know all things that arent timeless.
just because time is not taking place does not mean its not taking place. say for example i was trapped in a sphere of timelessness for all eternity, and this sphere was placed within a place with time, say a city block. while I myself am not governed nor affected by the outside time, it is still going on. and although i am not governed nor affected by time as am within a timeless sphere, i could not know future events of timed space, since although the time is not affecting ME it is still happening.
i dont know if i can explain that in the way i want to.
now if your God has both sides of every coin which u suggest(time no time alpha omega) then why is it that He is not both good and evil? why is there an exception in one case that this "infinite" being is actually not infinite, since in fact God does not contain the opposite or any part of evil.
and this being the case God could NOT be infinite.
this all of course in my views
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See your trying to understand something that our minds can not. And it leaves you frustrated and saying if I can not understand it then it can possibly be that way. WHY ?
Why can't it?
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
Evil is the corruption that free will allowed. Without free will there would be no evil as God does not dwell in sin, but allowed sin to happen because of his love for his creation. Think of it as the Chaos within the order. They are one in the same, just one is organized and the other is not.
You seem to be having trouble with the concept of "simultaneous causation". It isn't so much dwelling outside of time, but more like experiencing all things at once. there is no sequence without time.
There is no easy answer and I'm at work.
Please stop referring to God as "your God" though. There are few things that I have trouble with in these debates, but that one really bugs me. If there is a God at all, then he/she is everyone's God and should be called God.
You could say "Your concept of God" instead if you like.
To me, there is no half God.. There is either all powerful-made everything-God, or no God at all.
PAX
Mmm, Ok. I don't remember saying my God. But if you say so. Evil is further proof of free will. If we did not have any and God controled us 100% then there would be no eveil and then you could say no free will.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
no offense, but if he does not have (or believe in) a God, and you do, and he is referencing that entity, "your God" is an acceptable context. "Your God" and "Your concept of God" are two different things.
if he doesn't believe in God, then he doesn't have one. you saying "if there is a God at all, then he/she is everyone's God" is pushing your beliefs onto him.
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Ahh but I do not insist that he believe in God. Only that if referring to God, there can be only one. Weather we agree on what or who that one is, is another matter altogether.
I understand that it may be proper context, I'm asking for some courtacy. Saying "your God" implies that there is also a "my God" and that the two are different. To me, there is one, real and true God, or there is no God at all. Oddly the possibility of non-existance is proof of God, but I don't want tot get into that right now.I'm asking because it bugs me, noit because it is or is not proper.
I try my best not to force my beliefs on others. I ask only that if you are going to speak to my beliefs you do it in a respectfull manner. (not that anyone has been offensive, don't take it the wrong way.)
PAX
by your God i do not mean their are "different" gods. Your God means your concept of God. I do not believe there are any debates in the civilized countries as to wether their are different Gods or not. So "your God" is simply saying "your concept of God" in lesser words.
at leasts that is what i meant by it.
and also, i dont "not" believe in God. I simply neither confirm nor deny the exsistance of Him. and love debating the matter. for NO ONE can confirm nor deny his exsistence.
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