Jackalope wrote:Kardain wrote:Why would your god create a soul that it knows is going to be condemned to torment for eternity?
Exactly !! Why would ANY God create a soul it knows is going to be condemned to torment for eternity ? FREE WILL.
Please explain how free will is the answer to that question. Your god creates "person x" who is destined to rot in hell for the rest of existance. All events that lead up to "person x's" earthly demise are known by your god. All choices made, choices passed up, every meal, every second spent in sleep, all known by your god. Where is the free will in that?
Your waaaaay over thinking this. Its because we have FREE WILL. It explains all your answers. Just as you know the green light will turn red it doesn't stop you from continueing on. if we had no free will then Eve wouldn't have biten into the apple and given it to Adam. They wouldn't have been tempted by the serpent and then kicked from the garden. Then they wouldn't have realized they were naked and found clothing and then had sex and taa daa original sin! It all comes back to FREE WILL.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
Jackalope wrote:Your waaaaay over thinking this. Its because we have FREE WILL. It explains all your answers. Just as you know the green light will turn red it doesn't stop you from continueing on. if we had no free will then Eve wouldn't have biten into the apple and given it to Adam. They wouldn't have been tempted by the serpent and then kicked from the garden. Then they wouldn't have realized they were naked and found clothing and then had sex and taa daa original sin! It all comes back to FREE WILL.
but before God even thought about creating ADAM he already knew that eve would bite the apple and give into temptation. so he KNEW the sins they would commit IN ADVANCE. so while eve may have "felt" liek she "gave in" right there on the spot, in reality it already happened so she in essence decided nothing.
and since God knew this sin would happen, he purposely then created adam and let all the event of all mankind unfold exactly as they have. purposely knowing they he was going to be starting humankind ON sin.
doesnt sound liek free will to me.
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Just like you are waaaaay not answering the question? How is it free will that your god will create a soul that your god
knows will spend an eternity locked in torment?
No both of you aren't getting this. Everyone of us has the ability to kill another. Weather we do or not is up to us. Hitler didn't need to kill all those people he chose to. Now if we had no free will do you think God would have allowed this ? And if he did allow it then why ? God may have known Adam and Eve would be tempted and give in to it BUT the fact he did not stop them prooves they were free to make the choice for themselves.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
Jackalope wrote:No both of you aren't getting this. Everyone of us has the ability to kill another. Weather we do or not is up to us.
how can it be up to me, if me killing someone in 20 years has already happened?
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Hitler didn't need to kill all those people he chose to.
God knew that hitler would kill exactly the number of people he did before hitler was even born.
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Now if we had no free will do you think God would have allowed this ? And if he did allow it then why ?
exactly, why.
God has seen all because he is without time. simultaneous causation. all time at once no sequence.
so before he created ADAM he KNEW eve would SIN. he already saw the outcome of the entire situation. and he DID IT ANYWAY. now why would a God create a humanity KNOWING that they are starting off IN sin.
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God may have known Adam and Eve would be tempted and give in to it BUT the fact he did not stop them prooves they were free to make the choice for themselves.
no the fact that he did not stop it proves that there is no free will and that the situation had already happened.
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... which still doesn"t answer the question.
Ok, I need to start quoting... my last one was directed to Jackalope
IMO, God is more of parental figure for grown-ups. It has a lot to do with right and wrong - follow God, get rewarded. Don't, and get punished. It's just like when you were a kid - do something bad, sit in the corner. Do a good deed, stay up past nine. That's my view anyway.
The problem you guys are having is that you're trying to make sense of everything out of physics and logic. Everyone here on planet Earth has free will. .if not, we'd all be programmed robots. God is too COMPLEX of a being for our minds to try and comprehend Him. I just pray that the truth hits you now than later.
/\ /\ /\ Thats what I've been trying to tell them but they aren't getting it. For us to try and understand God would be like an ant trying to understand us.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
/\ /\ /\ Um, we are the ants.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
Um, that's not the way you worded it
You would NEVER convince me nor anyone else for that matter who knows the truth otherwise. If you don't want to believe that's fine, that's not my job to force you into beliving, I'm only required to servce you the gospel and pray that you may some day understand. We are the creations of God - we were made in his image. .it just so happens that Satan cleverly deceived Eve, hence again, proving FREE WILL. I say the sky is blue, you say it's burgandy. I say the world is round, you say it's flat. It's not going to matter to you because you'll never understand until you start thinking outside the box.
As I said earlier, I just pray that your eyes are OPENED before it's too late.
ScreamSayonara wrote:Um, that's not the way you worded it
Sorry for the confusion. What I was getting at is that we are comprable to an ant with our understanding of God and the universe just the ant would be looking up at us as if we were gods.
Better ?
And FireCav 98 well put.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
I'm more agnostic in my beliefs than anything. I believe there is something out there, just not exactly sure what it is. being a real logical-based person, it's difficult to just have faith in something you know nothing about.
I do believe that Jesus Christ isn't the savior. but that's for another thread some other time.
Desert Tuners
“When you come across a big kettle of crazy, it’s best not to stir it.”
ScreamSayonara, we don't go off what we can see. Even if there were proof, would you then worship Him? If proof that God exists is what you're looking for then it's already been provided through the son of God, Jesus Christ. Jesus, prophesied, healed the sick, gave sight to the blind, brought the dead to life and yet we crucified Him. I'd really hate to see what we'd try to do if God did prove himself.
We, as believers Scream, walk in faith not by sight. It's a concept hard for some, especially non-believers because of alot of variables. People find it easier to live a lie than live knowing the truth. It's much easier to sin than it is to be holy. We can't understand God because he's not human, we can't hook hospital machinery and read His brain waves to see what he's thinking because he's a spirtual being. And until you grasp that you'll never understand.
z24, why do you believe Jesus Christ is not the savior? If you believe that there's something out there, wouldn't you think that thing would want you to know what/who it is?
If you bought flowers for you girl wouldn't you want her to know it's from you?
this is where the logic kicks in. there's quite a few facts (and not just opinions) that I base this on.
there's too many facts out there that disapproves him (to me) as the savior of mankind.
one being Mithraism, a religion based on virgin birth, crucifixion and the resurrection. this happened 2000 years before Jesus.
he was the king of the Jews. he united the two Jewish houses to strike out against Holy Roman Empire. I don't see him as anymore as a freedom fighter.
but I really don't want to get into a massive discussion on this.
Desert Tuners
“When you come across a big kettle of crazy, it’s best not to stir it.”
Mithraism was a cult not a religion. I understand that you don't want to get into a full discussion of this but there are no facts that disapproves Jesus, ONLY opinions.
FireCav98 wrote:ScreamSayonara, we don't go off what we can see. Even if there were proof, would you then worship Him? If proof that God exists is what you're looking for then it's already been provided through the son of God, Jesus Christ. Jesus, prophesied, healed the sick, gave sight to the blind, brought the dead to life and yet we crucified Him. I'd really hate to see what we'd try to do if God did prove himself.
first of all you have to take into context the time period in which jesus christ was performing these so called miracles. at that time period there were ALOT of things that were "miracles" that are simple science today.
this was the time when the oracle was also foretelling the future. and kings and noblemen went to her in the caves and believed her.
however science has now proven, that the cave she dwelled in, in fact had vents releasing a gas that caused halucinations.
but of course THEN it was absolutely amazing that she was saying things about the future and the fate of men (although many times she was wrong)
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We, as believers Scream, walk in faith not by sight. It's a concept hard for some, especially non-believers because of alot of variables. People find it easier to live a lie than live knowing the truth. It's much easier to sin than it is to be holy. We can't understand God because he's not human, we can't hook hospital machinery and read His brain waves to see what he's thinking because he's a spirtual being. And until you grasp that you'll never understand.
actually living a lie is MUCH harder than living the truth, and it is in fact in many cases much harder to sin than it is to not.
it IS much easier to have "faith" than it is to QUESTION.
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z24, why do you believe Jesus Christ is not the savior? If you believe that there's something out there, wouldn't you think that thing would want you to know what/who it is?
If you bought flowers for you girl wouldn't you want her to know it's from you?
if there IS a thing out there, i would HOPE it would not want us to know of it in a way such as you describe.
because if a God is there and the reason why it wants me to KNOW it is there is because it was recognition (making sure ur girl knows the flowers are from you) than i would be a bit afraid of a being that is supposed to be so perfect in every way that it seems to be in reality quite self involved.
the point of doing correct things or nice things is NOT for recognition, and the bible even teaches this, so why would or should anyoen expect less from a God.
my point, if there is a God, i find no reason for it to be a neccessity that we know of its pressence.
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You would NEVER convince me nor anyone else for that matter who knows the truth otherwise. If you don't want to believe that's fine, that's not my job to force you into beliving, I'm only required to servce you the gospel and pray that you may some day understand.
although you say its not your job to force us to "know the truth" that you apparently know. in that same section of text you abstractly attempt to force someone reading into believeing. because what you know is the truth, and if they dont know it then they dont know the truth, and who doesnt want to know the truth.
YOU have NO idea what is or is not the truth. you know what you know through FAITH. FAITH is NOT truth. faith is faith. faith is the belief in something that MAY or MAY not be true. if it WAS true, u need not faith.
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We are the creations of God - we were made in his image. .it just so happens that Satan cleverly deceived Eve, hence again, proving FREE WILL. I say the sky is blue, you say it's burgandy. I say the world is round, you say it's flat. It's not going to matter to you because you'll never understand until you start thinking outside the box.
God knows all through all time. so that means, God knew satan would cleverly trick eve, and God then proceeded to purposely LET the human race start their first days of exsistence through sin. he did this knowingly if you stick to the story that God knows all.
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As I said earlier, I just pray that your eyes are OPENED before it's too late.
u seem to be judging those of us who do not share your views. is it not taught only god shal judge?
u seem to be taken i bit too much liberty into your hands with your "faith"
you can believe whatever you wish, however you "know" nothing. no one does. so do not tell me wether i do or do not know the "truth" for if God is the truth, and God is not comprehendable by the human mind, even followers of God could understand the Truth
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FireCav98 wrote:Mithraism was a cult not a religion. I understand that you don't want to get into a full discussion of this but there are no facts that disapproves Jesus, ONLY opinions.
there are no FACTS that prove Jesus. only oppinions.
it is a fact that jesus was a GOOD man, and did many deeds and was crucified. there are NONE proving divinity or miracles.
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Nate, answer me this. If God did prove Himself to you, would you worship then? Do you just think the universe just appeared from nowhere? You really seem to HATE it when someone mentions his name - just my observation.
