To start, I do not believe in the christian god, buddha, mohammed, vishnu, the goddess, the FSM, or any other spiritual being for that matter.
Me referring to the xian god as "your god" (and lacking the capitalization of God) is therefore correct. Not your interpretation of your god, but rather the god that you choose to believe in -- I'm keeping this non-specific as to religion (for the most part).
Jack, dreams can be manipulated. Your analogy of "your god's dream" is flawed.
As long as you believe that your god is all knowing, you have forfeited your free will. I'll let Hahahaha explain it...
Hahahaha wrote:That's because God is aware of all possiblities as God exists outside of time.
... and at the same time, he scored a point for the atheists, I'll continue (and I have some catching up to do I see).
You have allowed yourself to succomb to the knowledge that your god will know every last little detail that is to happen in your life, no matter how insignificant. Even if you stop believing in your god, you will not regain that free will. Your god forseen your departure from "its grace" and knows that you have condemned yourself to an eternity of torment.
I am understanding what you are saying, I imagine that I am not being too clear.
----
On to Hahahaha:
Hahahaha wrote:It's not a prediction or foreknowledge.... No past, no present, no future, no time, therefore no predictions, no pre-destiny, no before and no after.
This statement contradicts your previous. If your god knows all possibilities, there is pre-destiny. No ifs, ands, or questions.
I'll also rephrase the following and pose a follow-up question:
Nathaniel wrote:now if your God has both sides of every coin which u suggest(time no time alpha omega) then why is it that He is not both good and evil? why is there an exception in one case that this "infinite" being is actually not infinite, since in fact God does not contain the opposite or any part of evil.
Rephrased: If your god is infinately good, where is there room for evil?
Question: Why would your god create a soul that it knows is going to be condemned to torment for eternity?
and I'll repost this, because I feel it fits better here:
If this being is omnipotent, then every occurrence, including every human action, every human thought, and every human feeling and aspiration is also His work; how is it possible to think of holding men responsible for their deeds and thoughts before such an almighty Being? In giving out punishment and rewards He would to a certain extent be passing judgment on Himself. How can this be combined with the goodness and righteousness ascribed to Him?
-Albert Einstein
Desert Tuners
“When you come across a big kettle of crazy, it’s best not to stir it.”
Knowing all possibilities does not equate to determining which path you will choose, only knowing what all of you choices are. There's a difference.
“I liken them to two ropes going through two holes in the ceiling and over a pulley above. If I wish to support myself by them, I must cling to them both. If I cling only to one and not the other, I go down.
“I read the many teachings of the Bible regarding God’s election, predestination, his chosen, and so on. I read also the many teachings regarding ‘whosoever will may come’ and urging people to exercise their responsibility as human beings. These seeming contradictions cannot be reconciled by the puny human mind. With childlike faith, I cling to both ropes, fully confident that in eternity I will see that both strands of truth are, after all, of one piece.”
"Our moral freedom, like other mental powers, is strengthened by exercise. The practice of yielding to impulse results in enfeebling self-control. The faculty of inhibiting pressing desires, of concentrating attention on more remote goods, of reinforcing the higher but less urgent motives, undergoes a kind of atrophy by disuse. In proportion as a man habitually yields to intemperance or some other vice, his freedom diminishes and he does in a true sense sink into slavery. He continues responsible in causa for his subsequent conduct, though his ability to resist temptation at the time is lessened. On the other hand, the more frequently a man restrains mere impulse, checks inclination towards the pleasant, puts forth self-denial in the face of temptation, and steadily aims at a virtuous life, the more does he increase in self-command and therefore in freedom. "
The idea being that as a free person you have the ability to think rationaly and therefore determine your own action not through instinc, but through thought. IE: the proof is in the pudding. Animals running from predators or unknown threats are doing so out of instinct and do not exhibit free will. You choosing grape over cherry IS an example of you exersising your will.
This is not to imply that every one of your actions is done through reason. Things like breathing etc are spontaneous and not at all rationalized. My actions are pure instinct as well. You do not contemplate ducking before getting hit, you just do it.
A rebuttal I stole from newadvent.org
"On the contrary, It is written (Proverbs 16:2), "All the ways of a man are open to His eyes."
I answer that, God knows singular things. For all perfections found in creatures pre-exist in God in a higher way, as is clear from the foregoing (4, 2). Now to know singular things is part of our perfection. Hence God must know singular things. Even the Philosopher considers it incongruous that anything known by us should be unknown to God; and thus against Empedocles he argues (De Anima i and Metaph. iii) that God would be most ignorant if He did not know discord. Now the perfections which are divided among inferior beings, exist simply and unitedly in God; hence, although by one faculty we know the universal and immaterial, and by another we know singular and material things, nevertheless God knows both by His simple intellect.
Now some, wishing to show how this can be, said that God knows singular things by universal causes. For nothing exists in any singular thing, that does not arise from some universal cause. They give the example of an astrologer who knows all the universal movements of the heavens, and can thence foretell all eclipses that are to come. This, however, is not enough; for singular things from universal causes attain to certain forms and powers which, however they may be joined together, are not individualized except by individual matter. Hence he who knows Socrates because he is white, or because he is the son of Sophroniscus, or because of something of that kind, would not know him in so far as he is this particular man. Hence according to the aforesaid mode, God would not know singular things in their singularity.
On the other hand, others have said that God knows singular things by the application of universal causes to particular effects. But this will not hold; forasmuch as no one can apply a thing to another unless he first knows that thing; hence the said application cannot be the reason of knowing the particular, for it presupposes the knowledge of singular things.
Therefore it must be said otherwise, that, since God is the cause of things by His knowledge, as stated above (8), His knowledge extends as far as His causality extends. Hence as the active power of God extends not only to forms, which are the source of universality, but also to matter, as we shall prove further on (44, 2), the knowledge of God must extend to singular things, which are individualized by matter. For since He knows things other than Himself by His essence, as being the likeness of things, or as their active principle, His essence must be the sufficing principle of knowing all things made by Him, not only in the universal, but also in the singular. The same would apply to the knowledge of the artificer, if it were productive of the whole thing, and not only of the form. "
PAX
Hmm.. I must be misunderstanding this Matt 24:14:
"For many are called but few are chosen."
It must really mean: Many are called, but few end up choosing God.
And I must be misreading John 6:44:
"No one comes to me unless the Father who sent me draws him…"
It must really mean: No one comes to me, unless they feel like it.
And I must be misreading Romans 3:10-11:
"As it is written: 'There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks god.'"
It must really mean: Some are righteous. Some understand. Some, all on their very own, seek god.
And Romans 8:30:
"Those whom He predestined He also called..."
That must really mean "Those whom he predestined, which is everybody, He also called and now hopes that they accept..."
And Romans 9:11:13:
[*before they were born*] Jacob I loved but Esau I hated",
it really means: AFTER THEY WERE BORN AND JACOB ACCEPTED ME AND ESAU REJECTED ME then and only then I loved Jacob and hated Esau.
And when He said to Moses (Rom 9:14) I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy", it really means "I will have mercy on whoever asks me for it."
"The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord; and he delighteth in his way" (Psalm 37:23, KJV)
In regards to Jusas Iscariot (Matthew 26:75): "Then Peter remembered the word that Jesus had spoken: 'Before the cock crows you will deny me three times.' " if that's not predestiny and lack of free will, I don't know what is.
Need I continue?
Because there is no time, to God, you have already made the choice.
You still don't get it, that's OK. It's a tough concept.
PAX
Hahahaha wrote:Because there is no time, to God, you have already made the choice.
You still don't get it, that's OK. It's a tough concept.
PAX
Omniscience, which includes foreknowledge, must ( if only by definition) precede the event. To include the phrase "outside time" obfuscates cause and effect relationships and is so incoherent as to be essentially meaningless.
In fact, being "outside of time" would effectively destroy your own argument, since being "outside of time" would mean that, to god, your life is like holding a DVD in your hand. It is all self-contained and complete and only chronological when played in a linear fashion.
Being omniscient, however, means that god need not play the DVD in chronological, linear order to know what happens at the end, so there goes the "free-will-based-on-humans-being-inside-time-and-god-being-somehow-outside-it" argument.
You are attempting to apply a tangible aspect of human existance to something that is intangible. I am merely challenging a belief as well as an attribute of that intangible being.
Albert Einstein wrote:If this being is omnipotent, then every occurrence, including every human action, every human thought, and every human feeling and aspiration is also His work; how is it possible to think of holding men responsible for their deeds and thoughts before such an almighty Being? In giving out punishment and rewards He would to a certain extent be passing judgment on Himself. How can this be combined with the goodness and righteousness ascribed to Him?
Remember that Einstein did believe in God, he just wasn't a run-of-the-mill idiot like most of the world's population. However I do disagree to some of his beliefs(both scientific and religious).
Kardain wrote:Hmm.. I must be misunderstanding this Matt 24:14:
"For many are called but few are chosen."
It must really mean: Many are called, but few end up choosing God.
And I must be misreading John 6:44:
"No one comes to me unless the Father who sent me draws him…"
It must really mean: No one comes to me, unless they feel like it.
And I must be misreading Romans 3:10-11:
"As it is written: 'There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks god.'"
It must really mean: Some are righteous. Some understand. Some, all on their very own, seek god.
And Romans 8:30:
"Those whom He predestined He also called..."
That must really mean "Those whom he predestined, which is everybody, He also called and now hopes that they accept..."
And Romans 9:11:13:
[*before they were born*] Jacob I loved but Esau I hated",
it really means: AFTER THEY WERE BORN AND JACOB ACCEPTED ME AND ESAU REJECTED ME then and only then I loved Jacob and hated Esau.
And when He said to Moses (Rom 9:14) I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy", it really means "I will have mercy on whoever asks me for it."
"The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord; and he delighteth in his way" (Psalm 37:23, KJV)
In regards to Jusas Iscariot (Matthew 26:75): "Then Peter remembered the word that Jesus had spoken: 'Before the cock crows you will deny me three times.' " if that's not predestiny and lack of free will, I don't know what is.
Need I continue?
Well Kardian you are making 2 mistakes here. First, you are pulling something out of context. Second, you are failing to address the very real and likely possibility that the Bible we have today(between problems in translation and accidental and/or intentional changing of various parts) is not exactly the same as the words that God supposedly gave man. Therefore you cannot judge the religion by a whole based on it - except for the various word-for-word interpretations based off of it.
Also there is a way that God can know the so called "future" without deciding it(or the whole thing), but I'll get to that later
Kardain wrote:To start, I do not believe in the christian god, buddha, mohammed, vishnu, the goddess, the FSM, or any other spiritual being for that matter.
Me referring to the xian god as "your god" (and lacking the capitalization of God) is therefore correct. Not your interpretation of your god, but rather the god that you choose to believe in -- I'm keeping this non-specific as to religion (for the most part).
Jack, dreams can be manipulated. Your analogy of "your god's dream" is flawed.
No your reference is not correct. Consider president Bush. Like it or not, since I am an American, he is "my president" (and I don't like it BTW). Now I could choose to believe if I like - that he is NOT the american president, that there is a large conspiracy of lies to make me think he is(much as you feel about religion). However if I choose to believe he is not "my president," I cannot change the FACT that he is - despite my beliefs. Bush is not the conservative president, but the American president.
Now in terms of God, he either DOES or DOES NOT exist. I believe he does and you do not. Nonetheless, he either exist for us both, or neither one of us.
Kardain wrote:
As long as you believe that your god is all knowing, you have forfeited your free will. I'll let Hahahaha explain it...
Hahahaha wrote:That's because God is aware of all possiblities as God exists outside of time.
... and at the same time, he scored a point for the atheists, I'll continue (and I have some catching up to do I see).
You have allowed yourself to succomb to the knowledge that your god will know every last little detail that is to happen in your life, no matter how insignificant. Even if you stop believing in your god, you will not regain that free will. Your god forseen your departure from "its grace" and knows that you have condemned yourself to an eternity of torment.
I am understanding what you are saying, I imagine that I am not being too clear.
I'm afraid you logic here is also flawed. Read my point above. If God does exist, AND you are correct about God negating free will, then NO ONE has free will despite if they believe if God or Allan Alda. Beliefs are negligent, facts are relevant. God either exist of does not. If he does not then all have free will regardless of beliefs. However I do NOT believe that God negates free will, and here's why...
I believe in so called "TIME" much the same way that you believe in God, as a concept invented by man. Time is useful on graphs and other methods of keeping track and organization, not as a physical medium.
Consider the law that matter and energy alike can neither be created or destroyed. That means that the matter that makes up your computer has always existed(well since creation IMO), and always will exist, although not necessarily in that form. You can rearrange atoms, electrons protons and neutrons and even quarks, the matter still exist although in a different form. In any chemical equation(mathematical law is the only universal law), the output is always the sum of the input. 2H + O --> H2O, and broken up, 2(H2O) --> 4H, 2O (2 water molecules broke up result in 4 liberated hydrogen atoms and 2 liberated oxygen atoms). Matter changes, and moves, as a result of physics. We can keep track of this with "time."
For those who would say that God exist outside of time, I say so do we. Everything that comprises you already exist in the past and still will exist long after you die. Although in another form all the matter which is "you" has existed and always will exist. So if "time" exist, and therefore "time-travel" is possible, then you have the problem once you travel that you are removing "yourself" from one point in time and adding yourself to a point in which "you" already exist, no matter if you had never been born or are long since dead. Problem is that you already exist in both the so called "past" and in the so called "future" therefore you exist outside of time. In terms of mathematics, the "past," "present," and "future" are equal equations. You cannot break mathmatical law by adding.
A realistic way to define the "past" is to say where matter and energy where, and in what form they where arranged. Equally the "future" could be accurately defined as just where and how matter and energy will be arranged at any given point on a graph.
Also consider that scientist can easy predict the
approximate position (not exact since you must know ALL variables and know the smallest possible unit of measure if there is a smallest) of the earth on January 15, 3054AD at 11:35:49.8437 AM Central Standard Time. They don't need to be "all knowing" if they have mathematics. Do they negate free will by doing this?! Of course not.
I believe that the only thing that exist "now." In the same way that a scientist(not having all the variables in the universe) can predict with very good accuracy where the earth will be, God(having all the variables and the ability to process them), can easily predict anything at any point, WITHOUT NEGATING FREE WILL.
I've never heard of this "part throttle" before. Does it just bolt on?
BastardKing 3000 wrote: No your reference is not correct. Consider president Bush. Like it or not, since I am an American, he is "my president" (and I don't like it BTW). Now I could choose to believe if I like - that he is NOT the american president, that there is a large conspiracy of lies to make me think he is(much as you feel about religion). However if I choose to believe he is not "my president," I cannot change the FACT that he is - despite my beliefs. Bush is not the conservative president, but the American president.
Now in terms of God, he either DOES or DOES NOT exist. I believe he does and you do not. Nonetheless, he either exist for us both, or neither one of us.
However, it can be proven that George Bush exists. god on the other hand, there is no proof that it exists. As such, I can call George Bush "my president", but in reference to a god, it will be known as "your god"
You seemed to miss the important part that you quoted... Let me requote that for you:
Me wrote:Not your interpretation of your god, but rather the god that you choose to believe in -- I'm keeping this non-specific as to religion (for the most part)
Until there is stone-cold, visible, tangible evidence that a god exists, I do not now, nor will ever, refer to it as "my god"
BastardKing 3000 wrote:Also consider that scientist can easy predict the approximate position (not exact since you must know ALL variables and know the smallest possible unit of measure if there is a smallest) of the earth on January 15, 3054AD at 11:35:49.8437 AM Central Standard Time. They don't need to be "all knowing" if they have mathematics. Do they negate free will by doing this?! Of course not.
The xian god, by definition, is all-knowing. It will know the
exact position of Earth at that given time today, and all events that will lead up to that point for every soul that has been and has yet to be created. Your god will know that you will read this post.
I still have one question that was posted above that has not been answered, or even attempted to be answered...
Why would your god create a soul that it knows is going to be condemned to torment for eternity?
Kardain wrote:The xian god, by definition, is all-knowing. It will know the exact position of Earth at that given time today, and all events that will lead up to that point for every soul that has been and has yet to be created. Your god will know that you will read this post.
I still have one question that was posted above that has not been answered, or even attempted to be answered...
Why would your god create a soul that it knows is going to be condemned to torment for eternity?
By definition you say. Who's definition? I believe that God at the very least knows everything of the right here and now. I believe that God can predict what will be at his will. Also I believe God can, but chooses not to change any variable at any time. I believe he once did and now does not, because everything he does affects the choices we have and therefore will affect our free will. Therefore I don't see God's will behind each hurricane or leaf blowing in the wind. I see science behind those. However I see the universe as something set in motion by God so that indirectly God would be behind each leaf blowing in the wind. Also I'm not so sure that God would choose to see everything the "future" has in store. That would ruin the point. Who skips to the end of the movie? But thats just my opinion.
Now as for God creating a soul he would know would be condemned to eternity, I don't think that occurs. Assuming you believe in eternal damnation, there still is free will and no one will force you to or to not do anything. Probability is another thing.
As for my example consider that a scientist predicting a giant meteor colliding with earth. That scientist is in no way responsible for the extermination of most life on earth. Seeing the "future" is in no way creating it.
But Karian, since you're real big on the predestination thing particularly believing that if there is no free will then it would be God's fault that there is not, consider this. If there is no God then equally we have no "souls." In that case everything that comprises our conscious thought is made out of matter as we know it. Your "thought" is just a complex chemical reaction. All chemical reactions are predictable and given the same scenario will occur exactly the same way each time. The things you think being a factor of the chemicals in your head your thoughts are a 100% predictable reaction to stimulous. Therefore every "thought," "choice," and "decision" you make is predetermined as a predictible chemical reaction as a direct result of the laws of physics. As such you are just following the chemical programing. You are therefore incapable of "choice." In fact everything that has happened or ever will is a direct natural result of the laws of physics the moment the universe exploded. Translation - You have no "free will" and you never did - even if there where no God.
If anything has any possibility of giving you free will then it would have an X factor like maybe a "soul." Even then you only have the will to choose between the choices in front of you.
I've never heard of this "part throttle" before. Does it just bolt on?
To take of hahaha and what he said about simultaneous causation:
It's concept does make sence in that there is nothing anywhere that proves or disproves the existance of alternate realites, Thus all-knowing, all seeing and all that do make a lot of sense and don't negate free will. It could be said that everything that can happen does happen, and out consciounesses only percive along a certain line that meanders through the 5-dimensional hyper-hypersphere of time.
However, al that proves is that God exists as a 6th dimensional entity--or greater if he's got the ability to msee that, it doesn't prove omnipotence.
However, if God was omnipotent, there would be no way that he would have been the same entity that wrote--alit indirectly, ANY religious tome--me mere doing so would negate a portion of itself, and thus imply imperfection. That, or he did it o set us against each other, in which he created the perfect comedy.
But still, all joking aside, the choice always comes down to a simple unproven one: Is God Everything? Is the univere everlasting or was it created? Is time linear or circular (rather, Hyper-hyperspherical, but most people can't even see in 3 dimensions)?
For the perception I lead, I cannot see how God *coudld* exist based on the evidence i've been given. All that does is make me right for me and wrong for everyone else. Hahaha, for example, Sees the evidence laid before him and sees God exists, and that makes him right for him but wrong for evryone else (since in both of our cases, no one percieves things the same way so even a partial or mostly right will have some wrongs in it).
As such, we're both right and wrong at the same time
Goodbye Callisto & Skađi, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
If then Kardain its as you stated and we have no free will of our own and God controls every aspect of our lives how then is it we have any evil in the world? Why would God who created us and gave us all these wonderful things seek to destroy that which he has made? That would be like you or I building a car just to burn it to the ground, Makes no sence. If we have no free will then there must be no evil. So please explain how there is no evil in the world. I'll take one example and proove evil exists. HITLER. Now if you believe Hitler was not evil then what do you call the mass murders of all those people at his hand?
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
Every choice you make proves there is free will. Every time you stop to think about something, there it is, more proof.
PAX
Well it would apear we agree on this !
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
hahaha-
the argument is that you may "feel" liek ur havign free will.
but if the thought you are going to have pop into your head 30 seconds from now, is already known and essentially has already happened, then that technically cant be free will.
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Creative Draft Image Manipulation Forum:::
Unless everything that can happen does happen and your consciousness chooses which path it wikll follow and ignored the simultaneous realities.
Goodbye Callisto & Skađi, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
Nathaniel O'Flaherty wrote:hahaha-
the argument is that you may "feel" liek ur havign free will.
but if the thought you are going to have pop into your head 30 seconds from now, is already known and essentially has already happened, then that technically cant be free will.
But YOU have the choice to do it or not. Ergo Free Will.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
Buuut it hasn't already happened. When your driveing down the road and you come to a light thats green do you slam on your brakes because you know it will turn red sooner or later ? No that would be silly you keep going. But why you know it will eventualy turn red so why not stop now ? You know its coming. This is the same basic thing you are saying. God knows whats going to happen so because he knows then you can't change things so you may as well have no free will........... thats reeeeeeaaaaaching !
So the next time you come to a green light stomp on your brakes cause it will eventualy turn red. Makes about as much sence as your arguement.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
Jackalope wrote:If then Kardain its as you stated and we have no free will of our own and God controls every aspect of our lives how then is it we have any evil in the world? Why would God who created us and gave us all these wonderful things seek to destroy that which he has made? That would be like you or I building a car just to burn it to the ground, Makes no sence. If we have no free will then there must be no evil. So please explain how there is no evil in the world. I'll take one example and proove evil exists. HITLER. Now if you believe Hitler was not evil then what do you call the mass murders of all those people at his hand?
Why would your god create a soul that it knows is going to be condemned to torment for eternity?
Kardain wrote:Why would your god create a soul that it knows is going to be condemned to torment for eternity?
Exactly !! Why would ANY God create a soul it knows is going to be condemned to torment for eternity ? FREE WILL.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
Jackalope wrote:Kardain wrote:Why would your god create a soul that it knows is going to be condemned to torment for eternity?
Exactly !! Why would ANY God create a soul it knows is going to be condemned to torment for eternity ? FREE WILL.
The same reason underwear manufacturers make underwear they know is going to ride up your crack...
FREE WEDGIE!
John Wilken
2002 Cavalier
2.2 Vin code 4
Auto
Maybe you should stop buying your underwear too small.
you guys arent understanding. it only FEELS liek free will but it is NOT. that is what my logic tells me.
yes OUR time is moving forward . however to a being without time, ALL time has already happened. so all your actions, before you make them in "our" time, has already been shown and have already happened.
so while it may "feel" like u made a spur of the moment decision, in fact that decision had already happened and had already been decided long before u even "thought" about making it. this without time being has already seen that you decided to run a red light in 15 minutes from now.
it only "feels" like free will to us because we are governed by a sequences of time.
its funny how quickly some of you go from telling some of us that the human mind isnt capable of understanding exactly how things work through God. but all of a sudden u know exactly how all of time works and that for sure there is free will.
if "God" has seen all actions threw all time already, then why for him, was it such a suprise when the human species supposedly "developed" sin?
from what i have read/heard the human species being able to "sin" was not a "planned" attribute. so in other words it is a mistake. but how can a all seeing all knowing omnipetent being make a mistake that would have clearly already played out and saw the reprecusions before he "created" man
and why would a God create sin in the first place if it was on purpose. why would a perfectly mercifull and perfectly just being try to "fool" "tempt" etc a soul to damnation.
and in order to not do some of the sin described in the bible u would have needed to read the bible to know what NOT to do. and if thats the case, what about humans who have had NO access to the bible. they would sin and be condemned for something they didnt know they shouldnt do.
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Creative Draft Image Manipulation Forum:::
