ok i guess i have poor typing skills ...how many Chinese people live in north America? do you not think there would be a up rising here if anything happen over there... Iran/Iraq wouldn't send ships over there are none. but why not step up there bombings in big citys? helping them selfs the us wouldn't nuke but maybe fight a different war blitzkrieg or fast attack started at the polish/German border first with stuka dive bomber then with art,then with rolling panzers stopping only for gas, the polish had men on horse back with rifles i think it was a 3 days it took. mean while Hittler said to Russia,and France naaaaaa were just going for the countrys around us not you guys so keep away and thats what they till england said hello do you guys see whats going on? by then south Russia had german troops. But germany did the same line to France i forgot the name of the tactic or the place but France had a line at the border which had bunkers which German planes blow the hell out of. later german troops put the names of fathers that died there in ww1 Germany changed the way in which they fought just like today it's not going to be long ranged bombers and tanks not at first anyways there too much political red tape hhhmmm think bush is going to be around 4 more years? after Iraq? if china was to attack i think it would be started right here in the states first with peeps living here already. Hitting valued areas soften up coastlines and governments bombing and such everyone seen what happen to the towers and the effect it had on the world
http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/4235/jim25ek.jpg
First off, punctuation helps...it was hard to read your post.
Nw, you're referring to the Magniot line...which never broke. Germany got around it by going through Luxemburg, and then Belgium, and into France...RIGHT AROUND IT. For China to do that to the U.S, it would be far more complex:
They would have to get short-range tactical bombers within a striking distance of the West Coast.
They would have to get the troops for a sustained ground assault, to the shore at the same time.
They would have to provide the fuel and provisions to do so.
They would have to have support ships for them--as in escorts and other military ships.
They would have to traverse 6000-8000 miles of the ocean to egt to the U.S.
They would have to do this without us knowing.
---
In other words, try a D-Day simulation, but launch the invasion force from the western coast of Hudson's Bay rather than across the English channel.
Even if you had Iran and Iraq trying to lauch Suicide bombers into cities and the like--how quickly would the U.S. close it's borders--especially if they were expecting a full-frontal assault on the west coast (it's unlikely the Chinese could slip across the entire Pacific ocean undetected--more like Nigh-impossible).
Plus, not everyone from Chinese descent would be for them if China decided to invade--it's profiling--and not in a good way. Many of the Japanese sent to concentration camps over here...were against Japan!
Plus, the one thing you're forgetting is that if china was going to invade, blowing up something wouldn't do anything for their cause--the first attack, like in the Blitzkreig, would be to gain a foothold in thr country making it impossible for the enemy to oust you. All China would do is take some land on the west coast--if even that. they would be barricaded from the passes and by the mountains themselves, and the sea on their west--supply lines would be incredibly long and difficult, if not impossible to maintain with our navy harassing theirs. Look what we did to Japan in WWII--we succeeded where Germany failed in trying to strangle Birtain out of existance--and we had inferior submarine technology.
Again, the likelyhood of them succeding is slim. The likelyhood of it being worthwhile to them is infinitessimal.
-------
Jack: Again, see how Germany fought Britain. You cannot successfuly fight a country on an air war alone. with 4-5 BILLION people, you can't just bomb Bejing, Hong Kong, and Shanghai and think it's over. People will flee to the countryside and even carpet-bombing will be incomplete.
Plus, looking at the geography of china--Even though we could theoretically hit Bejing without having to traverse a huge mountain range--the majority of the rest of the country is VERY mountainous. If the majority of their people move west into the mountains, it doesn't matter how often we bomb them--we'd never take over the country in full.
Goodbye Callisto & Skađi, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
Keeper a battle fought by air alone wouldn't be an option. I was referring to retaliation only. And for that it would work great. Who would care about putting any troops on the ground ? Nope they could get hurt or killed. Rather bomb the living sh-t out of them so they can't re-supply the infantry attacking us and also destroy their moral. If your in a foreign country invading them and freezing your ass off on Donner pass in February and then you find out you wont be able to be re-supplied cause your home land is destroyed
more over that your entire family and everyone you left behind is now dead and its all your fault. See how it would work now ?
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
^^ thats the same thing we thought in ww2 with the japanese. but instead they pulled kami kaze attacks and took us by a major surprise. to tell the truth do you really think that china cares how many people it kills... with a population that size. us americans just need to face it, were soft.
go to any highschool and i guarantee youll see about 2 groups of students. the jocks which will in a few years notice there not as important as they thought and spiral into a life of obessity and joblessness. and the other group are those people who try not to fit in, but in doing so fit in anyway, (emos,goths,) the people that stand against every little thing and have no idea why there doing so other than mtv telling them to do so, or p diddy telling them hell shoot them if you dont.
i for one do stand against the war because i feel it is unjust and has no friggin purpose.
whoa whoa i went way off track here..... anyway......
JBO'S Mr. 64.....
Kami Kazeis didn't come till much later in the war after Japan had expended most of its
air force and its pilots. It easy to teach a kid how to take off but landing is tricky. Pearl Harbour was a straight attack no Kami Kazies.
And myself I think purple tastes best on foot balls as green just doesn't do it for me.
Orange is ok but if you put gorillas inside the baseballs the cars couldn't run from the giant ants.
See I can do it too.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
on the air war: the fleet of B2's and B1's is not large enough to sustain a concentrated bombing campaign... we would barely hurt China economically and militarily with so few advanced aircraft.. .they could fix before we got back for a second raid!
Sure we have other aircraft (fighter-bombers, ground attack, and B52's) but the first two would be used for escort duty and home defense, as well as hitting Chinese miltary targets i nthe field. Strategic duty would fall on the OLD B52's and a handfull of stealth aircraft. The stealths would have few problems but I'm sure the 6000 Chinese fighter aircraft would be all over the B52s like in Vietnam. And again, US pilots of all kinds would have to eject over China and be lost as POWs.
The US Airforce is the best in the world but we could not carry out a bombing campiagn like in WW2 where we had tens of thousands of Bombers and escorts at any one time... the attrition would be enormous to AAA, missiles, and fighters! If we fought a defensive campaign or a tactical offensive (not strategic) we could defeat China's main weapon, its army
As a retaliatory strike, yes, but why waste on it?
The bombers and fighter-bomobers would be better put to use knocking out chinese transports and warships, and fouling up the beachheads. if this were to happen, the strategy would be to for them to expend far more troops, resources, and manpower than us, then slowly push them back to the sea.
Goodbye Callisto & Skađi, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
A couple of thingst that most of you have overlooked.
1.) 1 B-2A Bomber, is capable of taking out 16 different targets on the same mission, and there are 20+ B-2As in existence. The B-2A also flys single as there is a Fighter Escort will give away the presence of the B-2A. A B-2A has a 6000 mile unrefueled range, therefore China would have to take out the forward airbases in Japan, Diego Garcia, and Guam in order to hurt our ability to employ the B-2A
2.) Carpet Bombing is no longer an option, period, we can't do it, stop talking about it.
3.) The supply lines are too long and our submarines are too quiet, China, while they do have very advanced Naval capabilities do not have the sensors to be able to locate our newest and most advanced Fast-Attack Submarines. The newest Los Angeles, Seawolf and VIrginia Class submarines would take a severe toll on any invasion force that crossed an ocean.
4.) Forward Bases, such as in Japan and Hawaii will have to be taken out before a serious attack can be brought down on the Continental United States, or else the supply lines across the ocean will never be secure which means that a foothold will never be gained on the beaches, because the supplies will not get there in large enough quantities to help with the war effort.
5.) While the Chinese are a very formidable adversary they do not have the capabilities to communicate with their forces over the distances we are talking about, an Invasion of this nature would be very hard for us to pull off and we do have those capabilities.
6.) You can't do hit and run tactics when you have an established base of operations, such as what the Chinese would have to have in order to have any thoughts of a succesful invasion.
7.) As I mentioned before the 17.5 miles of shore line on Camp Pendleton is the largest continuous undeveloped area of the Coast in the entire state of California.
All of those points and more have to be thought of and a plan put in place fore each individual point in order to even have the slightest chance of a successful invasion, if not then it will be a complete disaster. Last year in Iraq when I went out on Convoys we had 5 page long convoy briefs that covered everything from Security Halts to what to do if a vehicle gets a flat tire, to what we will do if we found an IED, there are so many things that have to be thought of it absolutely boggles the mind. You think that military operations are simple, but even the simplest ones are complex with everything that has to be accounted for.
Yella02-I promise I will return to you in one piece and this will stay up until I am safely home
I think it could be a close fight...the US is determined. Not since the early 1800s has an army stepped foot on American soil (Japanese took Aleutians in 1942, but Alaska was not a state) but the Chinese do have millions of soldiers they would send to death without a second thought. I think that they might be able to do is by simply having more soldiers to throw at us than we could kill....
/\ /\ /\ Did you read Saints post directly above yours? China could not get them here !
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
Didn't I say somewhat of the same thing, Saint?
Goodbye Callisto & Skađi, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
Yes you did and so did I but then they said what if China were our neihbor. And it went down hill from there.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
[quote=Keeper of the Light™]Didn't I say somewhat of the same thing, Saint?
Yeah, you did, but I figured I'd verify it, since it's what I do for a living, and I figured I'd group them all together in one post so it can just be quoted and that's the end of it.
Yella02-I promise I will return to you in one piece and this will stay up until I am safely home
89Sunbird wrote:. I think that they might be able to do is by simply having more soldiers to throw at us than we could kill....
never underestimate the power of a Solder/Marine and a machine gun
You'll never touch God's hand
You'll never taste God's breath
Because you'll never see the second coming
Life's too short to be focused on insanity
I've seen the ways of God
I'll take the devil any day
Hail Satan
(slayer, skeleton christ, 2006)
yeah seriously, I donno if the Chinese have modified their battle tactics but human wave attacks don't work too well against modern weaponry... one MG could take out thousands! A bomb just as many!
The Thunderbolt II's 30mm GAU-8/A Gatling gun can fire 3,900 rounds a minute and can defeat an array of ground targets to include tanks.
I'd like to see vids of A10s vs. the Chinese army... ouch
The GAU-8/A is the only gun in existence capable of penetration the Chobham Armor of the M1 Abrams, and British Challenger, and Challenger II tanks. It's been proven in Iraq, there is no Soviet weapon in existence capable of disabling an Abrams or Challenger II, hell, our own weapons are barely able to take out an Abrams.
Yella02-I promise I will return to you in one piece and this will stay up until I am safely home
guys, no one should even be arguing about this. i know people that are in irag right now, they are a lot older than me though. and just to make sure everyone knows, the u.s. has by far the highest technological advances in warfare, more funding from the government is put into it than anything else. we have shells now that can seek a specific heat, like 96.7 (i think thats it), which is the human temperature. so these shells can turn and follow a target with that specific heat, while it will bypass anything different than that heat. our advances are so far greater than any other country that it doesnt matter how many people thay have in their military...
As I've said before on this thread, 9/11 should have tought us something.
Apparently it didn't.
If a half-dozen terrorists can bring down 2 of the WTC buildings, destroy part of the Pentagon and all the other destruction they caused, how can you believe that we would easily prevail against the best and brightest military minds in China?
If you sleep better at night pretending that the US is invincible, that's your choice. Feel free to bury your head in the sand, just don't ask me to come down there with you.
9/11 was only a few soldiers who exploited our weaknesses. What would the destruction be if there were 50 similar attacks? or 100? What if China orchestrated 5000 similar attacks at once?
Having the best tech and the latest gadgets only means we can efficiently fight a defined enemy. What about the suicide bombers that have taken out US camps in Iraq? One man with a bomb strapped to his chest that greets his enemy with a smile, right before he blows everyone up. Crude, but effective. Multi-million dollar equipment beaten by one man with $20 worth of electronics strapped to his chest.
Argue who's plane is faster all you want, it's little termites that will beat us.
John Wilken
2002 Cavalier
2.2 Vin code 4
Auto
The 9/11 attacks were so succesful because they were so small, and created a lot of devastation. If you scaled those attacks up they would not work, their would be too many people involved someone would talk, it would leak out somewhere. Iraq is the same way, there are small cells that are doing hit and run tactics on their home turf, with no establised bases so we can not target where they are building the IEDs and VBIEDs, but when we do you can bet that the insurgents regret that they were ever born.
An Invasion can not be succesful, there are too many things that have to be accounted for, in order for it to be succesful. It has very little to do with a technological advantage, and everything to do with Logistics. Wilken, I do this stuff for a living, I think I have an idea what I'm talking about, read my post about 5 up from yours then come up with a plan for every single one of those points, and I guarantee I can come up with a counter.
Small cells pulling off simple attacks such as 9/11 can succeed, it's been done before. A large-scale invasion with thousands of miles long supply lines landing on one of the most mountainous coast lines in the world, and having to cross 3 mountain ranges and 3000 miles to capture the capital can not succeed.
Yella02-I promise I will return to you in one piece and this will stay up until I am safely home
Saint wrote:The 9/11 attacks were so succesful because they were so small, and created a lot of devastation.
Iraq is the same way, there are small cells that are doing hit and run tactics on their home turf, with no establised bases so we can not target where they are building the IEDs and VBIEDs,
Small cells pulling off simple attacks such as 9/11 can succeed, it's been done before.
Saint, you're making my point.
Here's a plan of attack for you to "counter". A few small groups take out a few major oil refineries. A few small groups take out the electric lines that run into California. Another small group takes out the trading floors on Wall Street. All happen the same morning within a few hours of eachother.
You have no advanced warning, just like 9/11.
They are attacking unguarded non-military establishments, just like 9/11.
Assuming the attacks are successful, as you've stated these kind of attacks can be, this is your current situation:
California has to impose rolling blackouts from the lack of power. There are riots and looting, putting a major strain on law enforcement and creating areas of vulnerability for more attacks.
Texas has major oil fires and there is a drastic nationwide fuel shortage.
The economy gets dumped into a recession from investors fearing losing their money and pulling out of the market, just like right after 9/11.
Your move. How do you counter this, and anticipate my next attack?
John Wilken
2002 Cavalier
2.2 Vin code 4
Auto
That's not a plan that's a scenario. Too many groups attacking too many different targets, over too wide of an area. It's too large to be effective the same way that the 9/11 attacks were. The 9/11 attacks were launched out of the same airport, easy coordination, they used less then 50 people that's a small group, these won't come out of the same area and they require more then 50 people, which isn't a small group, and somebody will talk, and it doesn't take much to be able to figure out that something is going to happen.
The amount of coordination, people and resources needed are too great to be able to successfully be pulled off. What you mentioned was not a small attack, that would be a large attack, the 9/11 attacks while they had great effect and massive devastation were small attacks.
Yella02-I promise I will return to you in one piece and this will stay up until I am safely home
Then I guess you're not ready for phase 2 of this operation...
A large safe deposit box in Beverly Hills is full of explosives and a radio shack timer. Same for a bank in Manhattan, Washington DC and Boston. All explode around the same time.
People fear banks will fail and begin withdrawing their money which causes banks to fail. Consumer confidence goes into a tailspin and the economy continues to crumble.
Your situation is that now there is great unrest among the people. Prices skyrocket in anticipation of hoarding supplies (Y2K style). Gas stations close because of no fuel. Grocery stores fearing violence need armed guards at the doors. Businesses have to close, causing major unemployment and giving rise to nationwide riots.
China, who hasn't claimed responsibility for anything yet, offers to send aid. A convoy of cargo ships arrives with a military escort (to protect the Chinese cargo ships).
They come to port, but they're not full of food and supplies. They're loaded with soldiers and short-range weapons.
Your country is now in civil unrest. Riots are happening. Electric power is failing and there are places in the dark. Gasoline if you can find it is 11 per gallon, but it doesn't matter because no one can buy it. Finding food is a luxury.
And the Chinese are attacking.
Your move... Let's hear how we'd never get whooped by the Chinese now.
John Wilken
2002 Cavalier
2.2 Vin code 4
Auto
You just moved into military operations without securing your supply lines, the Forward Bases in Korea, Okinawa, Japan, Diego Garcia, and the Submarine Base at Pearl Harbor are not effected, they are still operational. The National Guard would be used to control the citizens. Now we'll say that the West Coast installations have been neutralized, Benning, Bragg, Knox and Lejeune are still Operational, and the Marine Corps is always on 24 hour alert. You also have to remember our European units in Germany that can be mobilized and brought over rather quickly. The biggest problem was that the Supply lines were unsecured and a Nuclear Submarine has an infinite range and submerged time, we could strangle them out of the fight.
Yella02-I promise I will return to you in one piece and this will stay up until I am safely home
And again, the operations you describe require too many moving parts, especially in the Government, someone will talk. Even our big offensives that we do our kept within a small circle until the last possible minute, then, and only then, do the troops find out. I can't tell you how many different times I've had no clue as to what was going on, and it's my job to know what's going on.
Yella02-I promise I will return to you in one piece and this will stay up until I am safely home
