Gam I'm gonna get back on topic as this isn't really about Mr. King.
The kids got what they deserved IMO.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
John Wilken wrote:GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:In the case of the original topic, these soldiers have likely earned themselves or their comrades a REAL attack with a grenade from the perp's or their friends... at the very least, it's another extra dig that is going to justify to the people that the US/UK are not there to help, just there to hoop them over a barrel and have their way with them. I don't like to say that, but s#it runs downhill and it picks up speed as it goes.
Iraq is a conquered nation.
They have to accept that whether they like it or not, the US/UK does have them over a barrel. Throwing rocks (or grenades) will most likely end with more Iraqi casualties than servicemen casualties.
Eventually we will end up with standing orders to shoot any rebels displaying hostile intentions. Our collective efforts beat the best their military had to offer, I'm sure a few rebels will be no problem either, even if they are teenagers.
Bull@!#$. Iraq has not been conquered, it has been oppressed by the American government illegally. You seem to have so much confidence in the military that's over there, but you keep forgetting that AGAIN 400 or so Insurgents held off 10,000 American troops at one time. I'm more than certain they could do it again. These people believe in what they are fighting for and will do ANYTHING to win...you can try and win a war with lies and deceit, but in the end you still lose.
"Speak the truth, and leave immediately after"
"The urge to save Humanity is almost ALWAYS a false front for the urge to rule"
"He who knoweth things as they are and not as they are said or seem to be, he truly is wise, and is taught of God more than of men."
Chamillionaire wrote:Bull@!#$. Iraq has not been conquered, it has been oppressed by the American government illegally. You seem to have so much confidence in the military that's over there, but you keep forgetting that AGAIN 400 or so Insurgents held off 10,000 American troops at one time.
Even if your exaggurated numbers are correct, they still lost.
Their former leader is on trial.
Foreign soldiers have base camps on Iraqi soil.
There is no central governing body, other than what the foreign soldiers have allowed.
Ergo, conquered.
Chamillionaire wrote:I'm more than certain they could do it again. These people believe in what they are fighting for and will do ANYTHING to win...you can try and win a war with lies and deceit, but in the end you still lose.
You know I've been against the entire Iraq invasion. I agree the public has been lied to, but our soldier aren't armed with speaches or foreign policy.
They have guns and tanks.
Whether or not you believe "the pen is mightier than the sword", I'm sure the tank is mightier than the teenager throwing rocks.
.
John Wilken
2002 Cavalier
2.2 Vin code 4
Auto
Cham. If Iraq has not been conqured thru armed combat and its leader removed what then has every war that was ever foughts conclusion? Was Germany not conqured at
WW I and WW II ? How about Japan after we nuked them ? They surrendured and gave up. Saddam ran and hid in a hole, his army utterly defeated, his generals running for the hills. Please if that is not conqured what then is ? Just because you do not see this as a just war does not mean it is not war. Right now the US is at war. I know this may be hard for you to believe but we are.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
ned wrote:dude im in iraq right now and sometimes thats the only way these ragheads will listen
Good job, Mr. Racist.
I will expect you to send your apologies to Major, Karo, and the other members here who grew up in that area of the world and have seen your lovely comment. Would you say that to their mothers and fathers?
You are a prime example of how ignorant Americans are. You will never understand what those people go though and how its not the American's duty, right, or responsibility to try and enforce what OUR government thinks is right for THEIR country.
Hopefully when I have children, they won't be called "ragheads" because of people being so ignorant about their father's ethnicity/culture. As for your children, I pity them.
Those kids were in the same position as Rodney King...
The soldiers were in the same position and did the same thing as the LAPD officers.
The only difference: The soldiers in Iraq won't get the same punishment as the LAPD... they'll get worse, and it won't be handed out by a court.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:Those kids were in the same position as Rodney King...
The soldiers were in the same position and did the same thing as the LAPD officers.
The only difference: The soldiers in Iraq won't get the same punishment as the LAPD... they'll get worse, and it won't be handed out by a court.
Mmmmm if I am not mistaken... Nothing happen to the Cops who did what they did to Rodney King.... thats why the LA Riotes broke out?
Unless I am completely wrong?
Karo:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodney_King
In the criminal trial, no, the 9 officers were acquitted of multiple assault charges, and yes, that's why there was the 1992 LA Riots.
The 3 officers involved in the beating were put on disciplinary duties or leave, and all have subsequently been fired, and Stacy Koon lost all pension rights because of the book he wrote afterward called Presumed Guilty. There were up to 24 LEOs that watched and did nothing to stop the beating, and from what I've been able to find out, they've all recieved harsh reprimands or departmental censures (ie demotions, docking of pay).
The LAPD was sued in civil court by Rodney King for (I think) 10 million dollars for the violation of his civil rights, and King won the suit to the tune of $3.8 million.
Back on topic: Iraq doesn't have a functioning civil court system yet (that I can find mention of), nor is there a constitution that has entrenched individual civil rights and actions of redress for violations of them... these kids are going to be martyrs.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
There are similarities between Rodney King and those teenagers in Iraq, but there are also differences.
Both were commiting illegal actions.
Both were endangering lives. Rodney King lead a high speed persuit through residential areas, the teenagers were throwing rocks. Both are potentially lethal actions.
Rodney King was wired on drugs, these teenagers are believed to be "willing to die" for their cause. Both are extremely dangerous.
Both were beaten severely.
But, unlike Rodney King, Iraq is a war zone. Aggressive action against soldiers guarding a post should have ended with the soldiers shooting whoever is attempting to take over their post. Regardless of how brutal they were beaten, or their age, they should have been shot dead. Those teenagers are fortunate to be alive.
In Cleveland during the Hough riots, the city declaired "Marshall Law". One part of Marshall Law is "No civilians out after dusk or before dawn". Those who challenged this were shot, 4 lethally. And this was a domestic issue, not nearly as bad as war.
Marshall Law was not in place when Rodney King was beaten. His beating went too far.
The teenagers in Iraq are in a war zone, which is more strict than Marshall Law.
The teenagers organized a militia, planned an offensive action and carried out their plan against a military target during a war.
To those who say this beating will only escalate the problem, ignoring it would have made it 100 times worse. Show weakness and you will get punked.
<sarcasm alert>
Maybe the soldiers should have had a "sit down" with those teenagers. They could have talked about their feelings, shared a cup of hot cocoa and maybe a group hug.
</sarcasm>
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John Wilken
2002 Cavalier
2.2 Vin code 4
Auto
John Wilken wrote:Even if your exaggurated numbers are correct, they still lost.
Their former leader is on trial.
Foreign soldiers have base camps on Iraqi soil.
There is no central governing body, other than what the foreign soldiers have allowed.
Ergo, conquered.
You know for an intelligent man, things seem to fly above your head WAY to often.
Oppression - to crush or burden by abuse of power or authority.
That sounds just like what has happened in Iraq to me!
My numbers are not exaggerated as you'd like to think. I've searched and searched, but cannot find what I'm looking for. I know someone else remembers when we first went into Iraq, US Forces had to call reinforcements to overcome these insurgents. Either way, US Forces are not winning anything over there because they cannot see the enemy. They are not going to stand and fight because they are smarter than that. They are using the same tactics that cost the US the Vietnam War. We WILL NOT win a war like this.
John Wilken[/quote wrote:You know I've been against the entire Iraq invasion. I agree the public has been lied to, but our soldier aren't armed with speeches or foreign policy.
They have guns and tanks.
Whether or not you believe "the pen is mightier than the sword", I'm sure the tank is mightier than the teenager throwing rocks.
Our soldiers should have the backing of its fellow Americans that seems to want hem home! This is the majority of those in America wanting this now. Also those in office that have not began impeachment proceedings for the Dumb ass of the United States have betrayed the American people as well. They'll impeach a man for getting head, but not for lying to the American people about the cause for 2000+ American lives lost. I really think that the Reason we have the right to bear arms is a case like this. The White House needs a good cleansing, and I wish that the people would step up and start mopping the floors with these @!#$s.
"Speak the truth, and leave immediately after"
"The urge to save Humanity is almost ALWAYS a false front for the urge to rule"
"He who knoweth things as they are and not as they are said or seem to be, he truly is wise, and is taught of God more than of men."
Slug wrote:ned wrote:dude im in iraq right now and sometimes thats the only way these ragheads will listen
Good job, Mr. Racist.
You are a prime example of how ignorant Americans are.
You are being racist just like Ned is, but against Americans. I'm an American and I have no problem with other people groups. Every group of people has something to offer the world, we should all learn from each other instead of hate each other. I understand your anger over his comments, but calling him names back won't help.
You can't outrun the radio.
94 Red Bird wrote:Slug wrote:ned wrote:dude im in iraq right now and sometimes thats the only way these ragheads will listen
Good job, Mr. Racist.
You are a prime example of how ignorant Americans are.
You are being racist just like Ned is, but against Americans. I'm an American and I have no problem with other people groups. Every group of people has something to offer the world, we should all learn from each other instead of hate each other. I understand your anger over his comments, but calling him names back won't help.
1) I am American and have nothing against being one...therefore I am not racist. Seriously, look up the term in the dictionary before you accuse me of something. Never did I call him a derogatory name towards his race or ethnicty, he did therefore making him "racist".
2) Calling names, no. Calling him something that is, yes. Truth hurts?
Rant alert! Rant alert! PO'd post ahead!
Chamillionaire wrote:Also those in office that have not began impeachment proceedings for the Dumb ass of the United States have betrayed the American people as well. They'll impeach a man for getting head, but not for lying to the American people about the cause for 2000+ American lives lost.
And the illegal spying on Americans by the Patriot act, and other illegal spying done "in the interest of homeland security". He really needs to face the impeachment board.
Chamillionaire wrote:I really think that the Reason we have the right to bear arms is a case like this.
You're 100% right on this. Our founding fathers knew that "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely". We have the right to keep "a well armed militia", and MILITIA is defined as civilians organized with guns. Elementary school history books claim this was to keep us prepared for invasion from England, but after we won that war, the law wasn't repealed. The intention was to maintain a balance of power between elected officials and the people they represent. It's this reason that we had a civil war.
<historical aside>
The north wanted a central government to unify currency and standardize laws. The south wanted states to be self-ruling and not answer to a federal government.. That's why the south called their army the "confederate army", con meaning against, and "federate" from federal. The leaders of the south knew that a central government would become too powerful and lead without representing the people.
</end boring history lesson>
IMHO, the south was right. Look at what's happening now. We have no more control over critical decisions than the original colonists who were under authority of England. We have excessive taxes and the only voice we have in government is picking which thief will lie to us for the next few years.
*puff, puff, puff... I'm OK now....
So, what were we discussing? Oh yea, how America is qualified to say that another country has an evil dictator and we must give those people democracy.
Let's remove the Constitution from the Smithsonian and mail it to Iraq. We're certainly not using it anymore.
<end rant.>
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John Wilken
2002 Cavalier
2.2 Vin code 4
Auto
John Wilken wrote:There are similarities between Rodney King and those teenagers in Iraq, but there are also differences.
That's a given...
Quote:
But, unlike Rodney King, Iraq is a war zone. Aggressive action against soldiers guarding a post should have ended with the soldiers shooting whoever is attempting to take over their post. Regardless of how brutal they were beaten, or their age, they should have been shot dead. Those teenagers are fortunate to be alive.
And be made Martyrs? No, they were humiliated and beaten... Does the term Abu Ghraib seem familliar? The only difference is, this incident and other incidents in the feild are getting swept under a very lumpy rug.
Quote:
Marshall Law was not in place when Rodney King was beaten. His beating went too far.
The teenagers in Iraq are in a war zone, which is more strict than Marshall Law.
I think the element you were talking about before was dusk-to-dawn Curfew. Also, at what point do you justify beating a person that is in custody? You can't, and thats the point. What was done there violates the
UN International Bill of Human Rights (which the USA and UK signed and ratified). The Soldiers, and the US gov't, has just proven that they are either hypocrites or are not there to liberate or protect the people. Frying pan or fire, take your pick.
Quote:
The teenagers organized a militia, planned an offensive action and carried out their plan against a military target during a war.
Which is irrespective of the point that you don't rub it in when you have someone in custody. Once a person is restrained, you do not at all continue physical reprisals. Doing so removes you from whatever position you were in, to that of the Gestapo. Put it this way, there's a reason there's no more rubber hose and phone book tactics in police interrogation rooms... That's one good thing about the US... why not spread THAT kind of wealth?
Quote:
To those who say this beating will only escalate the problem, ignoring it would have made it 100 times worse. Show weakness and you will get punked.
No one suggested ignoring it.
Would you rather take those kids into custody, and do what you've been instructed to do and what is fair and legal, or would you rather they make it worse and add the fuel of riteous indignation?
I'd rather see a group of service people acting like soldiers with principles and morals than saturday night brutes that kick a guy when he's down and beaten. If soldiers don't act like they're better than the people they deposed, then the avg. Iraqi is going to think they lost an at-home dictator, and gained a far-away dictator.
Quote:
Maybe the soldiers should have had a "sit down" with those teenagers. They could have talked about their feelings, shared a cup of hot cocoa and maybe a group hug.
Only if they get to teach the kids to sing Kumbaya.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:I think the element you were talking about before was dusk-to-dawn Curfew. Also, at what point do you justify beating a person that is in custody? You can't, and thats the point. What was done there violates the UN International Bill of Human Rights (which the USA and UK signed and ratified). The Soldiers, and the US gov't, has just proven that they are either hypocrites or are not there to liberate or protect the people. Frying pan or fire, take your pick.
I read through the 30 articles in your link. None of them apply to war or taking over a country. There are no rules listed for acceptable use of force during war. There are defined actions for human rights, but not when it's acceptable to kill during war.
Quote:
Quote:
The teenagers organized a militia, planned an offensive action and carried out their plan against a military target during a war.
Which is irrespective of the point that you don't rub it in when you have someone in custody. Once a person is restrained, you do not at all continue physical reprisals. Doing so removes you from whatever position you were in, to that of the Gestapo. Put it this way, there's a reason there's no more rubber hose and phone book tactics in police interrogation rooms... That's one good thing about the US... why not spread THAT kind of wealth?
Again, you are compairing peace time domestic issues to war. I really do hope that the new Iraqi government is good for the people, but until that happens we have to maintain the safety of our troops as well as our military position.
Quote:
No one suggested ignoring it.
Would you rather take those kids into custody, and do what you've been instructed to do and what is fair and legal, or would you rather they make it worse and add the fuel of riteous indignation?
I'll play along with this logic for a bit... OK, those teenagers are arrested, peacefully. Then more come, throwing rocks. They are arrested peacefully. Then more come...
What is your answer for a whole country that wants to throw rocks at us?
Quote:
Quote:
Maybe the soldiers should have had a "sit down" with those teenagers. They could have talked about their feelings, shared a cup of hot cocoa and maybe a group hug.
Only if they get to teach the kids to sing Kumbaya.
Those aren't peace signs on your kilt, are they?
.
John Wilken
2002 Cavalier
2.2 Vin code 4
Auto
I was unaware that you were American, Slug. I suppose it would be difficult to be racist against yourself.
You can't outrun the radio.
John, I've come to the realization that you don't know squat about the military and the guidelines, policies, and laws we must obey during war time. If there were no "rules" for acceptable use of force, then there would be no "Escalation of Force".
Domestic policing is quite the same as military policing. What I'm getting from most of your comments is that because others are out of line, those who challenge the United States like the Insurgents, that American military should step outside the morals, values, integrity, and standing policies and orders. I would think that you'd hold our military who is representing you as an American in Iraq, to a higher standard. I would expect you to condemn acts of this nature because if there are supposed to be any people on this earth that are the epitome of righteousness, it would be Americans...or at least their military.
I mean isn't this part of the BS reason they tell us we are over there, and some American people are feeling like they are doing something good for the people of Iraq by pressing our form of government upon them, because democracy like Americans have is best for the entire world?
If I were there, I'd be damned if I would step outside of my integrity just to get a little "payback" to those children, let alone insurgents. I'd know why I'm there...as part of a peace keeping force. Show me how that show of testosterone is in any way part of peace keeping? Like it was said before....next time it will be a real grenade because of what they did.
It's easy to grab a gun and shoot someone, or to grab a kid and whack them in the nuts a couple times...that doesn't take anything other than the heart and mind of a bully. Now be man enough to do what's right, you'll stand much taller in a very difficult situation and won't have to worry about reprimand/dishonorable discharge.
"Speak the truth, and leave immediately after"
"The urge to save Humanity is almost ALWAYS a false front for the urge to rule"
"He who knoweth things as they are and not as they are said or seem to be, he truly is wise, and is taught of God more than of men."
im usually not like that and yes i will apoligize. IM SORRY if i affended anyone. i was having a bad day. i know i should not have said that and i didnt mean it the way it came out. so ill say it again im sorry.
Beat the @!#$ out of those kids.
BTW this is the same area where an identical crowd burnt several british soldiers alive with fire bombs.
NEWSFLASH to all the spineless bitches who have never been in a situation like that. Afterwards you won't put up with any more sh#t by those type of people.
2004 WR Blue/silver STi
Cobb Stage II
12.69 @ 106.1mph 1.66 = 60ft
John Wilken wrote:I read through the 30 articles in your link. None of them apply to war or taking over a country. There are no rules listed for acceptable use of force during war. There are defined actions for human rights, but not when it's acceptable to kill during war.
The issue of killing a person wasn't in question. These kids were under arrest, it's by definition a police action at that time.
Quote:
Again, you are compairing peace time domestic issues to war. I really do hope that the new Iraqi government is good for the people, but until that happens we have to maintain the safety of our troops as well as our military position.
Granted, but do you do that by humiliating a few people here and there? Do I need to refer to Abu Ghraib again?
Quote:
I'll play along with this logic for a bit... OK, those teenagers are arrested, peacefully. Then more come, throwing rocks. They are arrested peacefully. Then more come...
What is your answer for a whole country that wants to throw rocks at us?
My answer is deal with it in a humane way, or stay the hell out in the first place. I'm not placing blame on soldiers for the position they're in, in Iraq, just what they do while they're in the country.
For those that throw rocks and debris, you deal with them the same way as you would here... Prison camps etc.
Quote:
Quote:
Maybe the soldiers should have had a "sit down" with those teenagers. They could have talked about their feelings, shared a cup of hot cocoa and maybe a group hug.
Only if they get to teach the kids to sing Kumbaya.
Those aren't peace signs on your kilt, are they?
No, the only thing I wear on my Kilt is a belt and a sporran if it's a formal occasion.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
Luke wrote:Beat the @!#$ out of those kids.
BTW this is the same area where an identical crowd burnt several british soldiers alive with fire bombs.
NEWSFLASH to all the spineless bitches who have never been in a situation like that. Afterwards you won't put up with any more sh#t by those type of people.
Luke is USMC, Semper Fi, mutha ******!!!
OK, testosterone rush over, back to cerebral mode.
Nah, just kidding,
HOORAH!
OK, one more time. Teenagers, kids, adults, Olsen twins, whoever attacks a soldier guarding a post in a war zone shouldn't be arrested. At the moment of rocks flying through the air it is a military battle, they should be shot at until such time as they either retreat or fall dead.
Gam, Abu Ghraib was a prison camp, different situation.
Rodney King, civilian during peacetime, different situation.
Charmillionaire, come to Cleveland and we'll go for a walk down East 55th. Let's see how closely you're willing to hold those ethics when there are people swinging bats and tire irons at your head for no other reason other than they don't like strangers. You won't have to look for me, I'll be swinging back, not calling 911 to arrest those pesky lawbreakers.
.
John Wilken
2002 Cavalier
2.2 Vin code 4
Auto
Quote:
next time it will be a real grenade because of what they did.
'
Hmmm was it not a grenade that they threw???
Luke wrote:NEWSFLASH to all the spineless bitches who have never been in a situation like that. Afterwards you won't put up with any more sh#t by those type of people.
The only spineless one here is you along with a few others. You are a Marine, one of the most respected branches in the United States military and expected to be the most moral and vigilant about being so. You don't display integrity, vigilance, honor, or morals with your mentality. You are the prime example of what the insurgents hate...and might I add, they have good reason. You're giving them justification for everything they do over there, and you wonder why you're unappreciated.
No matter whether someone has been in a situation like this or not, you are trained to handle situations like this in a manner that upholds the values that I know the Marines instilled in you that most of you seem to reject. In my opinion, you don't deserve the honor of being called a United States Marine. Go back to civilian life where your idiocy is acceptable. (Example of civilian: John Wilken
)
John Wilken wrote:Charmillionaire, come to Cleveland and we'll go for a walk down East 55th. Let's see how closely you're willing to hold those ethics when there are people swinging bats and tire irons at your head for no other reason other than they don't like strangers. You won't have to look for me, I'll be swinging back, not calling 911 to arrest those pesky lawbreakers.
Is there no end to this? I grow tired of you.
I am not an authority figure that is out to create peace or maintain peace. You can swing back all you want, the assailants will much more likely than not, catch a few bullets swinging bats and tire irons at me. Now, place me in the position of authority, and the response will be different.
I will gas them, mace them, fire rubber bullets, taze them...or whatever my department procedure would be for the use of force in situations like that. I would not compromise myself or the life of the offender because I can't control my temper and I can do it without gettting caught. No morals, no values, no integrity seems to be the common around here, and the ones that do have all of those above things are now being called spineless. Ironic isn't it???
"Speak the truth, and leave immediately after"
"The urge to save Humanity is almost ALWAYS a false front for the urge to rule"
"He who knoweth things as they are and not as they are said or seem to be, he truly is wise, and is taught of God more than of men."
