Saint wrote:I am in no way condoning the actions, however when the little kids start throwing rocks, you have to stop it, because it's only a matter of time before those rocks turn into grenades, and then you have dead troops. I'm sorry but when it comes down to the life of my troops vs. roughing up some Hadji kids, I'm going to rough up those kids to make sure everyone of my troops comes home alive. Decisions you guys will never have to make, and have no idea what it's like being over there, sitting behind your computer screen, all safe and sound.
Saint, I only need ask you this: Would you stand for it if the situation was reversed?
How fast would you come down on a IPF or Iraqi military patrol if they did the same thing to one of your guys, as those guys did to them?
I respect the fact that it's far more dangerous over there than here, but, you have to understand that people seeing this kind of stuff are going to suspect that something else is up other than liberation.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
Quote:
How would you react if someone was invading your country??
Please... the US military or Saddam Hussein? take your pick... I don't agree with the war but the US presence is better than Saddam's
Saint wrote:I am in no way condoning the actions, however when the little kids start throwing rocks, you have to stop it, because it's only a matter of time before those rocks turn into grenades, and then you have dead troops. I'm sorry but when it comes down to the life of my troops vs. roughing up some Hadji kids, I'm going to rough up those kids to make sure everyone of my troops comes home alive. Decisions you guys will never have to make, and have no idea what it's like being over there, sitting behind your computer screen, all safe and sound.
This one I completely agree with, Saint. No aggresive behavior toward our troops should be unanswered. And yes, the beatings the kids got were brutal, but the alternative was to shoot them. Dead kids can't go back to their neighborhoods and tell everyone not to throw rocks at US soldiers either. We have to keep the reigns very tight on rebellion or it will spread.
I've always been against our attack of Iraq, but that doesn't mean I believe our troops should be put in unnecessary risk.
John Wilken
2002 Cavalier
2.2 Vin code 4
Auto
John Wilken wrote:And yes, the beatings the kids got were brutal, but the alternative was to shoot them. Dead kids can't go back to their neighborhoods and tell everyone not to throw rocks at US soldiers either.
This will provoke more violence cause they'll told they got beaten by soldiers that are "supposed" to maintain peace.
but they were attacking the soldiers. IMO i say that the beatings were a little harsh, but hey, they won't do it again
and when i was in Iraq, I had some kids throwing rocks when i was on guard duty. I called my supervisor and asked how to handle the situation. he said "throw bigger rocks"
so next day i filled a duffel bag with bricks. little punks started with the rocks again, i started hurling bricks. they stopped that @!#$ real quick
You'll never touch God's hand
You'll never taste God's breath
Because you'll never see the second coming
Life's too short to be focused on insanity
I've seen the ways of God
I'll take the devil any day
Hail Satan
(slayer, skeleton christ, 2006)
Quote:
How would you react if someone was invading your country??
Because worrying if your leader is going to gas you or let his regime rape your wife is so much better. 22,219,289 people are free now, and in time, will have complete control over their country.
Da Ghost (Qc) wrote:John Wilken wrote:And yes, the beatings the kids got were brutal, but the alternative was to shoot them. Dead kids can't go back to their neighborhoods and tell everyone not to throw rocks at US soldiers either.
This will provoke more violence cause they'll told they got beaten by soldiers that are "supposed" to maintain peace.
Not true, the soldiers did maintain peace. The message is clear, US soldiers will not allow aggresive action against them. By opening a large can of whoop a$$ on these kids, they've prevented future violence. Google "Behavior Modification".
If the soldiers would have done nothing about getting rocks thrown at them, the message is "Sure, throw rocks at us, nothing will happen". Then it escalates to grenades.
Prison, war, playground, board room, it's all the same when it comes to dominance.
Allow anyone to "throw rocks" at you and EVERYONE will try to "throw rocks" at you.
John Wilken
2002 Cavalier
2.2 Vin code 4
Auto
werd.
oh and according to the vid, it was british soldiers, but close enough
were all allies
You'll never touch God's hand
You'll never taste God's breath
Because you'll never see the second coming
Life's too short to be focused on insanity
I've seen the ways of God
I'll take the devil any day
Hail Satan
(slayer, skeleton christ, 2006)
Jack: ever dealt with a petulent kid? Google: DETSHEET.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
Quote:
Bet those kids who got thier ass beat will think twice next time.
Next time they will carry a bomb and self-detonate to get revenge for what those soldiers did to them. If America were occupied by Iraqui soldiers who are trying to "liberate" you, wouldn't you throw rocks and more to them?
Quote:
If America were occupied by Iraqui soldiers who are trying to "liberate" you, wouldn't you throw rocks and more to them?
I hate this analogy, or whatever you want to call it.
America is free, Iraq was not. If Iraq was free and America wasnt, and we were liberated, the majority would be happy, but want Iraq to get out at some time. This is the same over there. Nearly all of the people in Iraq will have a better life without Saddam as their dictator.
SunfireN2o wrote:
I hate this analogy, or whatever you want to call it.
America is free, Iraq was not. If Iraq was free and America wasnt, and we were liberated, the majority would be happy, but want Iraq to get out at some time. This is the same over there. Nearly all of the people in Iraq will have a better life without Saddam as their dictator.
OMG!!!!!!!!!! someone who sees how it really is!! that is exactly how many people I met while serving in Iraq said how they feel......they are very happy that america freed them from saddam, but at the same time, wished that we would leave. and all of them seemed to like me more when i told them that i would like to leave, but can't
You'll never touch God's hand
You'll never taste God's breath
Because you'll never see the second coming
Life's too short to be focused on insanity
I've seen the ways of God
I'll take the devil any day
Hail Satan
(slayer, skeleton christ, 2006)
Roscoe, Maybe I shouldn't have said "ALL" Abd choice of words on my part. i should have said some.
And Gam, thats why the little sh-ts need an ass beating they won't soon forget.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
We are in a country that we should not have been in to begin with. Just because you're following orders does not make those orders right, or make it okay to respond to kids throwing rocks at you the way they did. Most of you seem to forget that you are Professional Soldiers representing the United States. What you see in that video is something you would expect from Iraqi Insurgents, not something that American Soldiers would do.
I see that someone brought up Police Officers, a similar Profession. When they have unruly behavior, they simply mace them or use other non lethal HUMANE tactics to get the offender to comply. Once in compliance, they arrest, and transport. For those of you stating that you are American Military and agree with this kind of behavior, you need to check yourselves for truly what it is you stand for. Right now, you look no better than an Insurgent to me and I'm sure other soldiers and ex soldiers who are able to maintain control of a situation and keep a Professional attitude throughout ALL aspects of soldiering.
You are not protecting anything in America, or that concerns America right now. You are a liberation force sent to another country to liberate them under the most obvious lies there have ever been told.
"Speak the truth, and leave immediately after"
"The urge to save Humanity is almost ALWAYS a false front for the urge to rule"
"He who knoweth things as they are and not as they are said or seem to be, he truly is wise, and is taught of God more than of men."
and eye for an eye leaves everyone blind
the answer to violence is not violence. yes it may "work" bt that does NOT mean it is the CORRECT thing to do.
all those kids get battered was BEYOND excessive. regardless of wether or not they "deserved" it. just because someone "deserves" something does not mean you should give it to them.
u also have ot think that many teens within their brain functios have still not developed the area of right and wrong. so in that sense beating them stops nothing. since their brain still can not fully understand right and wrong actions.
also, our troops are made up of young man who many fo them have came from bad homes or mental/emotional instability. these are not the men that should be in such highly mental/emotional situations such as giving up their lives for a cause other than themselves or one they do not agree with. and when u put large amounts of men liek this into large groups sometimes it just doesnt turn out very good. and i do not feel it is right for us to put these young men into situations like this.
my final thought is this.
if you "FULLY" understand what the right and wrong actions are of a situation, the wrong decision can NOT be made.
think about that.
:::
Creative Draft Image Manipulation Forum:::
Chamillionaire wrote:We are in a country that we should not have been in to begin with.
Yes, we shouldn't be there. I'm with you on this.
Chamillionaire wrote:Just because you're following orders does not make those orders right, or make it okay to respond to kids throwing rocks at you the way they did.
Soldiers not following orders? Not an option, especially in a war zone.
Chamillionaire wrote:Most of you seem to forget that you are Professional Soldiers representing the United States. What you see in that video is something you would expect from Iraqi Insurgents, not something that American Soldiers would do.
A previous post said they were British, but yes they are representing their country.
And it is now known to that area that soldiers who are attacked will defend their post, even from thrown rocks.
Chamillionaire wrote:I see that someone brought up Police Officers, a similar Profession. When they have unruly behavior, they simply mace them or use other non lethal HUMANE tactics to get the offender to comply. Once in compliance, they arrest, and transport. For those of you stating that you are American Military and agree with this kind of behavior, you need to check yourselves for truly what it is you stand for.
War zone vs domestic situation, totally different dynamics. If this happened in Cleveland, I'd be carrying a sign protesting police violence.
Chamillionaire wrote:Right now, you look no better than an Insurgent to me and I'm sure other soldiers and ex soldiers who are able to maintain control of a situation and keep a Professional attitude throughout ALL aspects of soldiering.
You're right, instead of beating them they should have been professional.
A professional solder would have thought this through.
These kids may have had bombs strapped to their chests, and throwing rocks was just a way to lure soldiers closer.
A professional soldier would have shot these kids from a safe distance to minimize the potential for harm to his squad.
Chamillionaire wrote:You are not protecting anything in America, or that concerns America right now. You are a liberation force sent to another country to liberate them under the most obvious lies there have ever been told.
I agree with this too.
.
John Wilken
2002 Cavalier
2.2 Vin code 4
Auto
Quote:
Decisions you guys will never have to make, and have no idea what it's like being over there, sitting behind your computer screen, all safe and sound.
No one made you join the armed forces, there is no draft....
Quote:
Because worrying if your leader is going to gas you or let his regime rape your wife is so much better. 22,219,289 people are free now, and in time, will have complete control over their country.
Yeah right. They will never have control of their own country. The U.S. will not allow that, we will have some sort of control, weather it be physical or political from now till the end of time. Why you ask? Oil. The only reason we went there in the first place.
Quote:
Please... the US military or Saddam Hussein? take your pick... I don't agree with the war but the US presence is better than Saddam's
Yeah right. Have you ever heard of a place called Palestine? Where they just held an election and the Ha mas party was voted into power by a very large majority. If they were to have an election there in which the Bath party was allowed to run they would be voted right back into power. Radical Muslims would vote more radicals into power. Why? Because democracy and freedom are against their religion. These people thrive on hate and violence. Just like the riots because of some cartoon that was printed in a news paper half a world away. They use it as an excuse to riot, nothing more than an excuse.
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Nearly all of the people in Iraq will have a better life without Saddam as their dictator.
Yes that is what your western world views are but not theirs. And who are we to impose our views on anyone?
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Remember those troops over there DO NOT WANT TO BE THERE !!!! They are following orders given by their superiors. They have ZERO choice in the matter.
They have all the choice. They did NOT have to join the armed forces.
KevinP (Stabby McShankyou) wrote:
and I'm NOT a pedo. everyone knows i've got a wheelchair fetish.
WHO CARES !!!! These little sh-ts got what they asked for.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
John Wilken wrote:Soldiers not following orders? Not an option, especially in a war zone.
Ummm, what the hell are you talking about? How did you you pull that out of your hind parts? I'm replying to comments like this: "They are following orders given by their superiors." Like I said, just because you're following orders, doesn't make those orders right. I am a former soldier, I know that you do as you are told unless it is illegal pretty much.
John Wilken wrote:A previous post said they were British, but yes they are representing their country.
And it is now known to that area that soldiers who are attacked will defend their post, even from thrown rocks.
I could give a flying @!#$ about British Soldiers, my entire post is about AMERICAN soldiers! It is now known that they will defend their post like children, yes. But now, don't you think that this will cause them to become even more of a target for a car bombing or suicide bombing? I would.
John Wilken wrote:War zone vs domestic situation, totally different dynamics. If this happened in Cleveland, I'd be carrying a sign protesting police violence.
The only difference in this scenario is that these are Cops vs Military. If you had any idea, the same procedures that military have to follow are usually along the lines of what Street Cops have outlined as well. Escalation of Force mean anything to you?
Regardless of whether it is a War Zone or Munincipal Policing, there still remains the required Professionalism of those given authority. These were not Professionals, they were kids given weapons, and now have tarnished even further the outlook on the Occupation by Foreign Forces in Iraq. Damn...we sure needed that to add to the slew of other things we've got going well for us over there!
John Wilken wrote:You're right, instead of beating them they should have been professional.
A professional solder would have thought this through.
These kids may have had bombs strapped to their chests, and throwing rocks was just a way to lure soldiers closer.
A professional soldier would have shot these kids from a safe distance to minimize the potential for harm to his squad.
A Professional Soldier would have foreknowledge that when he's in Iraq, he is not going to be very welcome there. Knowing that these people don't conduct themselves in a conventional way in regards to war, he would understand the danger that he has been placed in. He would understand and be briefed accordingly to the types of attack the enemy will present him on a day to day basis. If he does not have the intestinal fortitude, maturity, and Professional demeanor/mindset to deal with the situation, he will react the way these soldiers did. If he does, he can remain professional and not be the cause of shame brought upon by his actions.
A Professional Soldier would not need to shoot these children in what you tried to play as a noble thing to protect his squad. He would go through the proper chains to ensure that his actions remained appropriate in response to the situation. There were many other ways to handle this situation and subdue the offenders and be swift as well as set an example for the others out there who would try something like that.
"Speak the truth, and leave immediately after"
"The urge to save Humanity is almost ALWAYS a false front for the urge to rule"
"He who knoweth things as they are and not as they are said or seem to be, he truly is wise, and is taught of God more than of men."
Jack: have you ever read that the only that violence begets is violence?
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
Mmm Hmm, They threw rocks and look what it got them.
Look I don't like the fact that these kids got their asses kicked but all we see is a small video clip. Its entirely different then being there yourself. And playing Monday morning quarter back from the comfort of our computer isn't something any of us should engage in. No one here knows the full story. Who knows maybe those kids throwing rocks injured another soldier or killed someone. All I'm getting at is that they prob got what they deserved.
And as for police brutality, I feel you lay a hand on a cop and it should be open season on your ass.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:Jack: ever dealt with a petulent kid? Google: DETSHEET.
I googled DETSHEET, it's a boot, right? So give 'em a kick.
GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:Jack: have you ever read that the only that violence begets is violence?
OK, Gam. Pick a side.
Charmillionaire, I'm sure there are more civil, kinder actions that could have been taken.
Sure, the kids could have been caught, arrested and placed in custody. But we're only getting the news bite, we don't know the whole story. We don't know how long or how often these attacks against soldiers have been going on. We don't know if other means of stopping these attacks have been tried or not. We don't know how many kids have been arrested, or been arrested then later released only to throw rocks again.
As far as compairing domestic police to soldiers at war, I would expect to get beaten and arrested for throwing rocks at either one.
John Wilken
2002 Cavalier
2.2 Vin code 4
Auto
Weren't they mercenaries?
LS1's never blow up;
Spray that puppy... 02 sensors are overrated.
John: Detsheet is becoming the explosive of choice for suicide bombers (4-5 sheets slip under clothing easily). How do you make a suicide bomber: exert more force than is necessary on people that have nothing to lose.
I don't have a problem with subduing beligerants, even kids. But, you have to watch what the hell your doing and not get carried away.
Transpose what happened there to your front yard, and tell me how fast you'd call police brutality.
Jack: true, but, you also have to take what is shown in context. It's a uniformed soldier beating the snot out of someone. Its gratuitous. You didn't stand for 6 cops beating Rodney King into a thin pulp (no matter WHAT he did previous), what so different about a gross display of power in a middle-eastern country?
It's egregious here, and it's egregious there. Once you have the subject subdued, you don't start pummelling him worse.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
