wow, Ok There are a ton of things I would love to comment on here but I've come late in the thread. So instead I'll comment on the past few posts on this page only.
1 - I'm just going to first off comment on the picture that was originally in question here. The picture is a drawing of an apparent Muslim (we can agree on that) and currently the understanding is that (some) Muslims blow themselves up in the name of a religion, so the Muslim had a bomb on his head.. can we at least some what agree on that? NOW if we were to say... take another Religious or Political leader and do a similar thing (show a leader doing something that his fellow followers do in his name) would we be all surprised by the out come of the picture? Probably not. Let me guess what we might have. You'd have George Bush holding a gun. Jesus being passive. and yes the Muslims Prophet...well..we all saw the picture. I'm not saying that this makes the drawing right, but if the drawing is a depiction on how someone sees their Religion and they disagree with it, wouldn't that make them want to reflect on themselves?
2 - People act like the Muslims have just started killing people or that this fanaticism is something new. Which in fact the war over the "holy land" has been happening for Thousands of years. If you want I can post more about this but I'll leave it at that for now as I'm sure you don't want to hear me babble on about that as we already have a ton of things worth commenting on at the moment
3 - About the whole Ireland civil war thing. Last I heard that was resolved. I guess the people there finally picked up their bibles again and realized that what they were fighting for was peace and understanding...but then again how do you fight against someone for peace and understanding, when all you want is the same thing in return?( if I worded that incorrectly I'm sorry)
4 - I'm going to leave on a last note about the article that Gonzo posted. One part in general:
"Anything that Muslims touch decays. Any country they invade implodes. Any neighborhoods they take over turn ballistic. That’s why America in particular must route out sleeper cells. They must put down American webmastered web sites. They must send back home any Islamic who gives any twitch of problem making."
I just really have one question on this point....What's next? The Blacks, Chinese or the Mexicans? because clearly the nations that these people originate from aren’t in the best of conditions either.
03z24
Calco: The issue in Ireland isn't "resolved" mainyl because Britain stubbornly controls 6 counties... Think of it like, say, Mexcio controlled Texas, New Mexico, Arkansas and Kansas., ruled the area with an iron fist. It's the same situation. I think that they will be voted out soon enough, but that's just hopeful thinking on my part. The Ulsters wanted Ireland to subside and become another part of the UK under British rule, and Republicans (not the same as American Republicans, though
) want a united and free Ireland. They want peace to the exclusion of the other ideal. My own thoughts are that it may as well be a republic, prevailling opinion is that the Brits are hindering Ireland, but everyone likes being able to go where they want without Paratroopers aiming from the hip or patrolling in APC's, or having to worry about dustbins exploding.
The Muslim situation is similarly complicated... the Palestinians that lived under Egyptian and Syrian rule weren't any better off than they are now per se (most were farmers or goat herders), but they at least had their own land... Israel went on a little purging spree and basically created Ghettos for the displaced Muslims... how ironic, eh?
As far as sending people back to where they came from, I think it's a noble idea! Why, let's start with the whites and indians! </sarcasm>
There's better ways to deal with the problem of ethnic/religous motivated violence.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
I was just re-reading some articles on this, and I guess in skimming over them, I passed something up.
Why is it NOW that these riots are happening, and not last September when these images were originally published? In fact, I don't remember hearing a thing last September about the images being posted. Does anyone else remember anything about it? Or did I just miss the news?
Desert Tuners
“When you come across a big kettle of crazy, it’s best not to stir it.”
Quote:
As far as sending people back to where they came from, I think it's a noble idea! Why, let's start with the whites and indians! </sarcasm>
lol easy there, Patent Pending
03z24
Jarret: I'm not sure why this blew up (pardon the pun) only now... I guess news is slow moving from Denmark to the mid-east...
Calco: Well, I had originally planned an active eugenics program that would cull the herd from 6 billion to less than 350 million. I think of it as taking out the trash.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:Jarret: I'm not sure why this blew up (pardon the pun) only now... I guess news is slow moving from Denmark to the mid-east...
Calco: Well, I had originally planned an active eugenics program that would cull the herd from 6 billion to less than 350 million. I think of it as taking out the trash.
Oddly enough this reminds me of a joke (off topic to the origin of this thread I know and I'm sorry)
If you've ever seen the Movie Boondock Saints you've heard the joke, if however you havn't watch the movie it kick ass.
(joke has been slightly altered as to not offened anyone)
There are three men African American, a Mexican, and an American. The three men walk down a beach when the come across a lamp. They pick it up and give it a rub and sure enough a Genie pops out and grants each of them one wish. The African American goes first and wishs that all his people would back home in Africa free and happy. POOF the genie makes it so. Next the Mexican wishs that his people too would be home in Mexico free and happy. Poof the genie makes it happen. Next the genie turns to the American and says "so what will you wish for"? The American thinks for a second and says "you mean to tell me that all the Africans are back in Africa"? Yes replies the Genie. "and all the Mexicans are back in Mexico"? The genie nods. The American thinks and say "I'll have a coke then"
03z24
So in your "joke" the "American" is white I takke it..
See how people jump to conclusions? When does a non-white become "American"?
PAX
This fiasco will end up being a revolution of sorts of the muslum people is several muslum countries, it will tell them and their government that the world has free speech, and there is nothing they can do about it.
Maybe after thinking about that for a while and seeing that their "cousin" countries that have changed their system to a suystem of voting (that works) they will stop being so @!#$ stupid.
Unlikely. This is the human race we're talking about, and one of the many sects of those that IMHO have too much religion for good mental health. They won't stop being stupid as long as the practicioners follow the shephered like sheep...straight to the slaughterhouse.
Goodbye Callisto & Skađi, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
Hahahaha wrote:So in your "joke" the "American" is white I takke it..
See how people jump to conclusions? When does a non-white become "American"?
PAX
sorry if I offended you....it was a joke....you get jokes right.
03z24
[quote=Keeper of the Light™]Unlikely. This is the human race we're talking about, and one of the many sects of those that IMHO have too much religion for good mental health. They won't stop being stupid as long as the practicioners follow the shephered like sheep...straight to the slaughterhouse.
so then you can ask... when does faith cross over into fanaticism? guess we have our answer.
Desert Tuners
“When you come across a big kettle of crazy, it’s best not to stir it.”
[quote=Keeper of the Light™]Unlikely. This is the human race we're talking about, and one of the many sects of those that IMHO have too much religion for good mental health. They won't stop being stupid as long as the practicioners follow the shephered like sheep...straight to the slaughterhouse.
"If you tell lie long enough and loud enough the people will believe it" - Adolf Hitler
what I mean by that quote is it's not necessarly the religion or the followers but the people that are feeding them the crap that drives them. If not having faith in anything were the way to go we'd all be Emo.
03z24
Not faith in "anything" faith in self.
Consider this--how many good, upstanding christians, muslims, jews, pagans, pantheists, wiccans, hinduists, buddhists, et al have very little to do with what the "heads" of their religion say? Quite a bit.
While, i will concede that "religion" should have been "organized religion", when it comes down to it, humanity seems to want to have a form of external, rather than ionternal faith, and as long as some chumpstain is trying to sell salvation, the stupid masses that can't seek faith within and seek faith without will buy the garbage, and like the flock of sheep, the shepher will herd them...right to the slaughterhouse.
Goodbye Callisto & Skađi, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
Calco wrote:Hahahaha wrote:So in your "joke" the "American" is white I takke it..
See how people jump to conclusions? When does a non-white become "American"?
PAX
sorry if I offended you....it was a joke....you get jokes right.
You didn't offend me.. I'm a white Canadian.
The point ws that many would be offended. How would you feel if you were of hispanic or African origin (but born in the USA) and heard that joke?
No, I'm not preaching, nor do I have a hate on for jokes. I do think people should consider the impact of their words though. From my pint of view there is nothing in the universe more powerful than words, and they should be used with caution. Maybe even reverence.
What many see as harmless (like cartoons), others will find offensive. If they find it offensive enough, you get the problems that many Europeans are experiencing now.
PAX
Unfortunately, the creators set out the bait, Mohammed being portrayed as a terrorist. And the radicals went for it, doing just that, terrorizing.
Hahahaha wrote:Calco wrote:Hahahaha wrote:So in your "joke" the "American" is white I takke it..
See how people jump to conclusions? When does a non-white become "American"?
PAX
sorry if I offended you....it was a joke....you get jokes right.
You didn't offend me.. I'm a white Canadian.
The point ws that many would be offended. How would you feel if you were of hispanic or African origin (but born in the USA) and heard that joke?
No, I'm not preaching, nor do I have a hate on for jokes. I do think people should consider the impact of their words though. From my pint of view there is nothing in the universe more powerful than words, and they should be used with caution. Maybe even reverence.
What many see as harmless (like cartoons), others will find offensive. If they find it offensive enough, you get the problems that many Europeans are experiencing now.
PAX
Well I too am a White Canadian. If it were preferred I could have quoted the joke word for word in which the African American would be a Nigger and the "American" would was called a White man. Would that have made the joke any less racial? Probably not. Does the fact that the joke includes multiple ethnic groups make it racial? Would the joke have been less offensive if it had a Irishman, a Canadian and an American? I guess the best thing I could have done is just not told it...but to bad on me I have a sense of humor and enjoy a joke from time to time and again it wasn't meant to take in literal terms. Oh and in my opinion there is one things that speaks louder then words. Action, but again that's just my opinion. Do as I do not as I say.
03z24
I don't want to blow the joke out of proportion, and if in a different thread, I would not have said anything. This thread seemed like the right place to point out that what one person sees as harmless another my be offended by. That's all.
Actions come after thought, and thought is expressed in words, therefore there is no action without words. Everything begins with words, that's why they are the most powerful thing.
PAX
Hahahaha wrote:I don't want to blow the joke out of proportion, and if in a different thread, I would not have said anything. This thread seemed like the right place to point out that what one person sees as harmless another my be offended by. That's all.
PAX
Don't get me wrong, I know where your coming from and my last post was more for arguments sake. But I do agree with you.
Hahahaha wrote:Actions come after thought, and thought is expressed in words, therefore there is no action without words. Everything begins with words, that's why they are the most powerful thing.
Touche sir, very interesting point of view. I'm actually going think on that one and try and come up with a good argument
all in good fun though.
03z24
so yah, they published the cartoons like two or three more times, on the front page of the paper! just adding fuel to the fire.
everyday the rioters get more pissed and do more damage, its insane, its difficult to find news on it, but listen to the BBC or NPR, they will talk about it..
I find it interesting how no one has brought up freedom of speech. I watched "The News Hour" and they had on a young muslim from electronic intafada I believe and another older muslim from John Hopkins university. Their discussion was quite interesting
You could tell that the younger man was much more "fundamental" if you will. He still had a lot of fire in him. And he basicly said that it was the wests fault for the riots.
Then the older man came on and he made many good points. Mostly that the riots originated in Denmark, a "western, liberal society" where you have the freedom of speech and all that other good stuff...but he also said that with freedom of speech comes the freedom to be insulted. And he said that Islam in the west still hasn't gripped onto that fact that your lifestyle and religion will be insulted. I think the best example of this is during the whole "molesting priest" scandal came out. I don't know how many cartoons came out with the pope and cardinals and priests. And you can say that it's not the same...but you are trying to compare apples to oranges
What I mean is that they are generalizing (the cartoonists) and saying that all Catholic priests are child molesters. And what happened when the cartoons came out? The Catholic church didn't ban goods from those cities in which the cartoons were published. They didn't firebomb the offices that they were written in did they? No. I am totaly in favor of protest. Sometimes that is the only way things can get done. But I dont approve when governments get involved.
Anyone ever meet a kid who was 'home schooled' they are different. Becuase they were not required to meld with society. And you can make a basic comparison with the Middle East and the rest of the world versus a child who is home schooled and one who goes to school. What I mean is that if you home school your child and tell them that right is left and left is right...and they have to go into the rest of society...they are gonna be screwed becuase they don't even know right and left. WTF does this have to do with the middle east? Well if you only let people have one source of information (ie the government) they arn't gonna know any better. They are going to throw a hissy fit becuase thats what they've been taught to do.
But I do think it is unexcusiable how Syria and Lebanon would allow their citizens to attack embassy's. And for the rest of the Islamic world to cut off all ties with denmark...I mean is it a creameries fault that a paper published some cartoons? I think Carlos Mencia hit it right on the head when he said "You know why they are blowing themselves up? Becuase they dont joke. I mean if you wouldn't be able to crack joke you'd just get so wound up you'd *hits head with mic* ya know?"
And the whole "whats the point in trying to rise up again" that just sounds like your trying to find an easy way out of your problems. Try a new tactic. Becuase if everyone has an AK-47 (which it seems like everyone does) then the small exremist population wouldn't stand a chance against the rest of the muslim nation.
I'm done...flame/pick apart all you want
I think that the younger guy you were talking about has (like many) gotten a very one-sided view of things. Saying he's part of the electronic Intifada is basically stating that he believes in the hard-liner's version of things, and that he refuses to believe anything else.
Fire in the belly tends to mellow out when you realise that there are far too many hypocrites in high places in the world.
Also understand that the people we see day-in, day out that rioting and being general beligerants are:
1. Impoverished, and have been most of their lives.
2. Uneducated. They know the Islam they've been taught since birth, and they know little else because their world revolves around general intollerance.
3. Unworldly. Most don't know that making jokes of a particular (esp. their own) dogma isn't necessarily blasphemy, it's part of the freedom of speech
4. Unsophistocated. They're taking up arms against an "enemy" only because they are basically doing what they're told.
5. Philistine. They don't care that they are basically being divorced from the greater core of moderates who want nothing to with them and their fire-brand ways, and, they're proud that they still have their ignorance to a greater whole.
I don't hate these people... I don't pity them... I worry for them, because, they are ignoring the greater tenents of their religion. They don't understand how they're being played, and they are with little humor that is not mean and de-humanising. I heard on the radio that the Iranian state-run newspaper is running a contest to make fun of the holocaust... It seems to me unsophistocate to compare a single person's lampooning in drawings from a privately held newspaper, to that of an act of genocide in a state-run newspaper.
These people don't understand the difference between humour (which can be done with respect and in most cases reveals comedy in religion), and spite (which is devoid of respect and understanding). Again, I'm not talking about all muslims, I'm talking about the people that take to the streets, burn buildings and incite murder over a cartoon.
That, is pretty sad.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
Let's not forget that there was a massive uprising about "The last temptation of Christ" by Nikos Kazantzkis a few years ago. There was no way Nikos was coming out of hiding once the public death threats started. Where was the Pope while this was happening? Why didn't he call for forgiveness like some of you have stated the Muslim leaders should?
Or we could compair the extreme "Christians" who kill abortion doctors in the name of God. Same question, why doesn't the Pope publicly denounce these actions?
Should all Christians be identified based on these kinds of actions?
It's not just Muslims who have issues with extremists in their religion. We're just quicker to find fault with them because they're different from us.
I think I'll change my sig file to this:
Jackalope wrote:But then people have been fighting and killing because of Gods word since time began. Funny, all the different versions of God call for peace and understanding and yet the followers are willing to kill you if you doubt it.
John Wilken
2002 Cavalier
2.2 Vin code 4
Auto
I wish the leaders of Islam who say it is a faith of peace (which i believe it is) would come out and condemn all of the destruction, and if they are it needs to be showed more.
The Last Temptation of Christ, Jesus of Montreal, Passion of the Christ...
They were controversial because they changed the interpretation of history, or put a spin on it that was unsettling, not to mention all were works of art by 3 Catholics. The cartoons of the prohet Mohammed are aimed at the dogma of Islam, and were drawn by a Protestant. They're more different idealogically than they appear, the cartoon wasn't meant to be taken seriously.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
John let me just say I would be honored if you did.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
