^^^ My thoughts exactly. Many employees are getting grossly overpaid, but one grossly overpaid management employee is probably costing more than 10 grossly overpaid line employees.

Not to mention, incompetence on the part of a line worker, means a small defect in one car. Incompetence on the part of managementt, means the Cavelier goes untill the 2004 model year





"i promise we won't get drunk, and go out in boat in the dark, stand up in the boat and fire the gun into the air unless we have life jackets on."

GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:Do you not get that each assembly line cranks out 2-3 different lines?

The blue-collar pay isn't the problem (the employee base has been down-sizing for about 10 years), what about the people managing the company to hell, and getting paid contracts, Stock options (without the same constraints as full employees), and million dollar annual stipends?

Being penny wise and pound foolish, much?

i know that youre not illiterate... but try reading entire posts in the future (this goes for all of you)

this is what i wrote

Quote:

honestly... one of the reasons the company is going to the crapper is a direct result of employee wages and benefits. reducing those costs is just as important as bringing out quality products.

notice the part where is says "ONE of the reasons....", not "THE reason"

thanks.

the costs of building crappy cars are too high.

My apologies blurred..

I also think that the wages/benefits for the blue collar workers aren't the real problem. Paying people handsomely for managing with an utter lack of direction is IMHO.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

Hi there, i see you seem to be upset about GM 's worker situation. Did They turn down your job application? I just had to respond to this because i can empathize with the production technicians, being that i am one myself at the Canton Nissan facility. You say monkeys can do their jobs and they should make $8.50 per hour? That is absurd.
Consider this: I work on the common system (common system is the one that runs the Titan, Armada, Quest, and Infiniti QX56), There are about 30 jobs on my line in all. Now in a 9 hour shift the common system produces over 470 units! The line does not stop! Imagine doing a 9 hour tae-bo class and you just about got the idea. My hands are throbbing as im writing this now. it is very technical work, it took me weeks on some jobs to perfect them, because you have to train while the line is moving at speed, hell ive been there a year and a half and im still learning some tricks. As far as a union , we have none, and we are generally paid better than GM technitians i think.. Two raises per year and two bonus payouts per year. No the raises arent based on performance , but keep this in mind: we are allowed 4 defects per month, if it goes above that, we receive"corrective action". Thats about 9400 vehicles you have to work on and you are only allowed FOUR defects! Thats even if it gets caught on your own line by one of your lines check man.
Just thought id try to give you some insight to what goes on in an auto production plant , maybe you won't just spat off some misinformed rubbish next time without doing some research first. Again, im guessing that you were just denied employment at a gm plant. .

Whoy202 wrote:Hi there, i see you seem to be upset about GM 's worker situation. Did They turn down your job application? I just had to respond to this because i can empathize with the production technicians, being that i am one myself at the Canton Nissan facility. You say monkeys can do their jobs and they should make $8.50 per hour? That is absurd.
Consider this: I work on the common system (common system is the one that runs the Titan, Armada, Quest, and Infiniti QX56), There are about 30 jobs on my line in all. Now in a 9 hour shift the common system produces over 470 units! The line does not stop! Imagine doing a 9 hour tae-bo class and you just about got the idea. My hands are throbbing as im writing this now. it is very technical work, it took me weeks on some jobs to perfect them, because you have to train while the line is moving at speed, hell ive been there a year and a half and im still learning some tricks. As far as a union , we have none, and we are generally paid better than GM technitians i think.. Two raises per year and two bonus payouts per year. No the raises arent based on performance , but keep this in mind: we are allowed 4 defects per month, if it goes above that, we receive"corrective action". Thats about 9400 vehicles you have to work on and you are only allowed FOUR defects! Thats even if it gets caught on your own line by one of your lines check man.
Just thought id try to give you some insight to what goes on in an auto production plant , maybe you won't just spat off some misinformed rubbish next time without doing some research first. Again, im guessing that you were just denied employment at a gm plant. .

hardly. i would never work with that many uneducated rednecks, i dont feel like dumbing myself down to communicate.
so tell us what you do.
-so far all you have said is that you have to work hard.
-it only takes you a few weeks to perfect your job.
-you keep learning new tricks (but then again everyone does in every job).

so what you are saying is that someone with no education, either chooses to be a pizza delivery driver, or a production line monkey.
for both of them it only takes a few weeks of training to know exactly what to do. and they cant screw up, and have to work hard. whats wrong with that?
so you still get raises that you dont deserve.

so based on what you have just said... my opinions are accurate.
you should only get minimum wage for a job that only requires a few weeks of training to perfect.

No im not saying that education has anything to do with it, im saying it takes a certain type of person to do this job, first off one thats willing to forego 52 hours worth of pre-employment training , on their own time, if they have an impecible work history and make it past all the scrutiny of three interviews, one that has the stamina to keep up with the line, and finally one that has the intelligence to learn all the part types and numbers , procedures,sos sheets,etc. etc.
I myself only have a modest high school education. Ive been in the workforce since I was seventeen. Working in the grocery business, night shift, making a whopping $4.65 per hour! Only to be promoted to grocery manager at a even more staggering rate of $6.50 per hour. I worked hard 60 to 80 hour weeks for years.
The point is that ive paid my dues and proven myself as a compitent employee, and most everyone else i know at the plant has the same story.
No , education really doesnt matter , its intelligence and the willingness to devote yourself to the job and product. So , yes maybe even a pizza delivery driver such as yourself might even have a chance of becoming a production line monkey!

thanks for proving my point.

assembly line workers do NOT deserve large salaries for their job. period.

if you have a technical job that requires years of learning before you are competent, and are not easily replaceable due to your knowledge and expertise, you deserve to make good money.
"paying your dues" does not (should not) entitle you to a paycheck. sorry, but you dont deserve what you make.. and its unfortunate that you think you do.

Seniority counts for something in a unionised environment. Paying your dues does as well.

If you don't like the way a company does business, don't buy the product.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

GAM, do you know what the avg hourly rate is for a worker installing bumper covers or screwing in trim on a GM car is? Think about it and tell me what you think they should be paid for a job like that.

Hi all , i just got home from my mediocre overpaying job! Yes, blurred , it is unfortunate that i think i deserve what i make, I finally saw it your way, so last night at work i told them of you , of Blurred the almighty oracle!, the one who knows everyone and everything that goes on in this plant.
I told them of your wishes , i begged them to reduce our pay to $8.50 per hour so that we would only be a couple of dollars over your salary, i also urged them to replace us with monkeys! Sadly they did not agree with me, sorry almighty ............
Now the only point i helped you prove is that you are an IDIOT, and so am i for allowing this to drag on like this. The bottom line is this: IF YOU HAVE NOT HAD YOUR ASS ON A PRODUCITION LINE IN AN AUTOMOTIVE FACILITY, YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO JUDGE ANYONE THAT DOES IT FOR A LIVING.
Im sorry , its not my fault that you cant find a descent job and get out of your mother's house. There is a name for people like you these days:HATER! JEALOUS ASS HATER!
Futhermore , if you dont like the system or the wages get off your damn ass and do something about it! Go get a job at one of these plants, you've got to go and get it, it wont come to you! Go become the head of the Union! whatever, Just quit sitting at your little computer pissing and moaning about it like a little whiny bitch! If you really want to bitch about "grossly overpaid jobs" why dont you try football players , or movie stars or something, dammit i dont care just stop bashing blue collar workers that are just trying to support their families, like myselft. Is anyone in agreement with this? I think anyone wth common sense would be. Now, thats it im done , have your little last word ... whatever ill still have my job and you'll still be a jackass.

well, sports players and movie stars are worth what they make. if not for their popularity and the money that they generate by being the best in their field, the owners would not be making any profits. they do something that the average joe cannot do. look at a minor league player, or a b-movie star. they make just enough to get by comfortably.
you still havent answered what you actually do! i'm sure now you will make something up to make yourself seem somehow more important, but i'm still curious.
but the reality is... an assembly line worker is replaceable by anyone... and that is by your own admission! a few weeks to learn your job!
you are overpaid. sure you can throw names and comments around, but at the end of the day, if you lose your job, you will end up being paid what you deserve, because you have no skills, and no education. and that is the harsh reality. if you were being paid what you deserve for your job, if you were to lose it and have to find work elsewhere you would probably fit into a similar pay scale based on your expertise.
hmmm maybe mcdonalds workers make 20/hr! they work on an assembly line as well.... and it only takes them a few weeks to become competent at their job... although they do get better and find new tricks as they go along. they cant make mistakes, and have to work quickly to satisfy their customers.
yet they are paid what they deserve!!!

You know what? I still work there and i will work there as long as i can, i support my family with my job and the LOADS of money i make there. So get over it, if not then do something about it Mr. Prez! But you cant can you, so you will keep driving and you will keep eating McDonalds as long as you live. All you are good for is making comments that make you look like a jealous ignorant fool! I will not quit my job to satisfy you as im sure you would never leave Burger King for me! And what do you do if you are not too ashamed to say so? I told you where i work. Now its your turn, mamas boy! You make me and everyone else laugh, because you are still so damn mad about this pay situation, Kinda like my 8 year old, the other day when his friend got a better cell phone, He said Its just not Fair. Ive heard it all before..... Keep your head up and stick to your side and im sure one day you will get a good job.

My view on this.. If you think todays cars are garbage now, how do you think they would be if the line workers were getting paid 8$/hr?? If the line worker is good at his job, and doesn't screw up much, then I think he's worth the wage.. You said it yourself that McD's workers make and are worth the 6$/hr.. But how many times does the typical McD's worker screw up your order?? Happens to me everytime I go there!! There's even a topic about it in OT.. So if you want your cars as messed up as a McD order, sure pay them the 8$/hr.. To me it's not the line workers we should be looking at, it's the overpayed upper management who gives each other pensions that pay more than their current salaries.





Red 2005 Saturn Ion-3 Coupe

blurred wrote:well, sports players and movie stars are worth what they make. if not for their popularity and the money that they generate by being the best in their field, the owners would not be making any profits. they do something that the average joe cannot do. look at a minor league player, or a b-movie star. they make just enough to get by comfortably.

Bad analogy... Players shop their talent to the highest bidder, same as Actors. Actors do not have a regimented system of pay upgrades or stages that they must go through to be rated, Players are scouted through Minor/junior leagues.

Quote:

you still havent answered what you actually do! i'm sure now you will make something up to make yourself seem somehow more important, but i'm still curious.
but the reality is... an assembly line worker is replaceable by anyone... and that is by your own admission! a few weeks to learn your job!

Anyone that is irreplaceable is also unpromotable.

Quote:

you are overpaid. sure you can throw names and comments around, but at the end of the day, if you lose your job, you will end up being paid what you deserve, because you have no skills, and no education. and that is the harsh reality.

The harsh reality is that your pre-judgment says a lot about yourself.

Look at it like this: I know grade 8 drop-outs that are making 6 figures yearly, and they work for themselves. You're not volunteering any information as to what you do, just spouting off at the mouth (well, figuratively).

Quote:

if you were being paid what you deserve for your job, if you were to lose it and have to find work elsewhere you would probably fit into a similar pay scale based on your expertise.

Well, getting paid what you "deserve" is nebulous. I think I don't get paid enough for my job, and in my field, I don't make close to the average (although that is due to change shortly), what I deserve and what I get paid in reality is very different, this is something that you oughtta bear in mind before making broad assertions you can't back up. Here's one that you CAN however, figure out what the average unionised Auto worker gets paid and evaluate that against what is being made elsewhere in the same industry.... it's about the same everywhere.

Quote:

hmmm maybe mcdonalds workers make 20/hr! they work on an assembly line as well.... and it only takes them a few weeks to become competent at their job... although they do get better and find new tricks as they go along. they cant make mistakes, and have to work quickly to satisfy their customers. yet they are paid what they deserve!!!

They are paid what the company GIVES THEM. No-one that holds a job in the fast food industry has any illusions that the work has a high turn over rate. Auto work has a lower turn over rate... you do the math as to whom is better paid, and who has higher job satisfaction.

mrgto:
I don't know what they get paid, and frankly, I don't care. If you get into nitpicking details about individual part/labours costs, you might as well not bother buying a car to begin with. On top of that: I buy used cars... I don't have to worry what these people are getting paid because I'm not paying out the depreciation like a sucker.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

Quote:


well, sports players and movie stars are worth what they make. if not for their popularity and the money that they generate by being the best in their field, the owners would not be making any profits. they do something that the average joe cannot do. look at a minor league player, or a b-movie star. they make just enough to get by comfortably.


Bad analogy... Players shop their talent to the highest bidder, same as Actors. Actors do not have a regimented system of pay upgrades or stages that they must go through to be rated, Players are scouted through Minor/junior leagues.

well it wasnt an analogy, it was an explanation for what was previously written.

Quote:

Quote:

you still havent answered what you actually do! i'm sure now you will make something up to make yourself seem somehow more important, but i'm still curious.
but the reality is... an assembly line worker is replaceable by anyone... and that is by your own admission! a few weeks to learn your job!


Anyone that is irreplaceable is also unpromotable.

wheres the eye rolling emoticon.

Quote:

Quote:

you are overpaid. sure you can throw names and comments around, but at the end of the day, if you lose your job, you will end up being paid what you deserve, because you have no skills, and no education. and that is the harsh reality.



The harsh reality is that your pre-judgment says a lot about yourself.

Look at it like this: I know grade 8 drop-outs that are making 6 figures yearly, and they work for themselves. You're not volunteering any information as to what you do, just spouting off at the mouth (well, figuratively).

yet we are talking about 1 person who is a high school drop out.

as far as what i may or may not do, this is the internet, and i enjoy my privacy on the internet. as far as this guy (or you) know, i could be your boss, your next door neighbour, or your best friend. but it doesnt really matter, because i am here to debate issues which i feel the need to talk about and voice opinions (whether they are mine or not).

Quote:

Quote:

if you were being paid what you deserve for your job, if you were to lose it and have to find work elsewhere you would probably fit into a similar pay scale based on your expertise.



Well, getting paid what you "deserve" is nebulous. I think I don't get paid enough for my job, and in my field, I don't make close to the average (although that is due to change shortly), what I deserve and what I get paid in reality is very different, this is something that you oughtta bear in mind before making broad assertions you can't back up. Here's one that you CAN however, figure out what the average unionised Auto worker gets paid and evaluate that against what is being made elsewhere in the same industry.... it's about the same everywhere.

which brings us back to one of the original points... that the unions have helped jack up the pay scale of the automotive assembly line worker to a level which is out of synch with the rest of society.

An avg assembly line worker, with hrly wage, insurance, benefits, retirment, etc makes $76 dollars an hour.

Whoy202 wrote:You know what? I still work there and i will work there as long as i can, i support my family with my job and the LOADS of money i make there. So get over it, if not then do something about it Mr. Prez! But you cant can you, so you will keep driving and you will keep eating McDonalds as long as you live. All you are good for is making comments that make you look like a jealous ignorant fool! I will not quit my job to satisfy you as im sure you would never leave Burger King for me! And what do you do if you are not too ashamed to say so? I told you where i work. Now its your turn, mamas boy! You make me and everyone else laugh, because you are still so damn mad about this pay situation, Kinda like my 8 year old, the other day when his friend got a better cell phone, He said Its just not Fair. Ive heard it all before..... Keep your head up and stick to your side and im sure one day you will get a good job.

i am not mad about what you make as a person. i am happy for you.
i have a problem with the fact that you CAN make that much for your position. you do understand the difference dont you?

one day i will get a good job? sure once i start high school i will fast track myself and tyr to get a good education so that i can maybe be a manager at the mcdonalds that i start at on friday after school.

sorry that last post was my wife while i was sleeping, when i said i was done, i was done. Blurred, updat your profile so you wont be lying about your age.

mrgto wrote:An avg assembly line worker, with hrly wage, insurance, benefits, retirment, etc makes $76 dollars an hour.

Good for them.

Where was it you got this little tid bit of information?




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:

mrgto wrote:An avg assembly line worker, with hrly wage, insurance, benefits, retirment, etc makes $76 dollars an hour.

Good for them.

Where was it you got this little tid bit of information?

The CEO of Delphi. He said it on www.autolinedetroit.com

Sorry but the gravy train that i the UAW will end at GM in 2007....and more likely than not will end with Ford and DX.

Didn't Ford just (within a year or so) renegotiate with the UAW?

Either way, I think the Union would make concessions rather than lose the membership. And, with the way that labour laws are, I can't forsee UAW getting shoved out of GM... Not without a very messy strike or some other job action.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:Either way, I think the Union would make concessions rather than lose the membership. And, with the way that labour laws are, I can't forsee UAW getting shoved out of GM... Not without a very messy strike or some other job action.

<those who do not study history are destined to repeat it>

Let's not forget what happened to the Air Traffic Controllers Union under Reagan's administration. Everyone said that the union would win because the air traffic controllers were irreplacable. And unlike the perception here of autoworkers, air traffic controllers are a skilled trade, and planes would crash into eachother without trained people at the helm. None of that mattered to Reagan, he disbanded the union and hired replacement workers at a lower wage with less benifits.

There was a waiting list of people who were willing to accept those jobs.

<end history lesson>

I still maintain my position that it's not the assembly line workers who are the cause of GM's problems. It's shoddy engineering. Think of GM products you own/have owned. How many car problems have you had that you could say were the result of inferior assembly compaired to inferior engineering? If there's an area that needs attention, it's not assembly line wages, it's engineering.








John Wilken
2002 Cavalier
2.2 Vin code 4
Auto

I've leased mostly, and they've been GM vehicles... when I had a Honda, it sucked (2 recalls and a wiring harness replaced in 4 months)... Toyota Sucked (4 runner, frame of bamboo), I recently tried a VW (trans died), and I wasn't impressed at all.

I've got a 2000 alero now, and I know what to expect. I haven't had major problems, but then again, I'm not looking forward to replacing the lower intake manifold gasket.




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

John Wilken wrote:


I still maintain my position that it's not the assembly line workers who are the cause of GM's problems. It's shoddy engineering. Think of GM products you own/have owned. How many car problems have you had that you could say were the result of inferior assembly compaired to inferior engineering? If there's an area that needs attention, it's not assembly line wages, it's engineering.

You do know what GM pays out in benefits per car vs Toyota right? Have you ever had to work with in a budget and that budget dictates what you can and can't do in repects to suppliers and such?

GM products, despite using conceived cheaper materials, are still very good products. GM pays out between $1500 and 1700 per car. Where as Toyota pays $300 per car for benefits and retirement pay. Take that $1200 and times it by the number of cars GM builds per year. What is the money amount? That is what Toyota has extra to play with and to reinvest using better materials mainly for the interiors of the cars.

When the UAW 2007 contract ends, there is either going to be wide spread changes, or GM will focus more on the southern US where Unions are not accepted and where Toyota, Nissan and Honda have all built plants and build good cars using NON UAW workers.

I'm partially on GTO's side on this...it's not shoddy assembly, or engineering, it's beancounters trying to keep costs down and profit margins up so the execs can have their retreat in cancun.

A lot of the shoddy fit has to do with the fact thatin order to have a more clean, and precice fit, the tolerances have to be more precice, and when they're more precice, you have more scrap parts that don't meet those tolerances, and that costs the company money.

Thus, to maintain a "better build" GM can do one of 2 things:

Reduce the profit margin per vehicle, and pay the execs less
or
Raise the cost of the vehicle.

Now, if they raised the cost of the vehicle, less people would buy--not good for business. and we know that people at the exec level just HAVE to have the large Jacuzzi rather than the medium-sized jacuzzi, so that's not going to happen. thus, tolerances are looser, and the build seems less precice.

Personally, If i were in charge i'd fire a few of the execs who's actual job seems to be making colorful powerpoint presentations, and that should probably bring the build quality back up.


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
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The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
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