So this is what the conspiricy theory is...

1. Planes fly into buildings.
2. The government orchestrates the demolition of a tower, a burning building with questionable structural integrity.
3. They sneak in with explosives, plant them in the appropriate area, undetected by the thousands of people trying to get out and hundreds of video cameras taping everything from everywhere.
4. Then, in a perfect implosion of a building that's wobbly to begin with, they kill innocent civilians, firefighters, army personel and police.

Nope, not buying it. Not enough time to plan where the explosives need to go, impossible to sneak past all those camcorders, no benifit to the US to do it.



I saw a special on the discovery channel with the lead architect about why the towers fell. It had to do with the design having most of it's structural integrity on the outside sheeting, not internal I-beams. The heat compromised the connecting pieces, which allowed the upper floors to fall on the lower floors and starting the chain reaction.




John Wilken
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^ ^ ^ that makes sense to me.

The columns on one floor are usually only built to support the weight of that one floor. when they now have to support the weight of 2,3,4,5, etc. floors, the columns will fail.

Jackalope wrote:Yup the intire roof of the plant caved in, almost killed a couple fire fighters in the process
Now it the weight of the roof was enough to buckle the beams and colapse the roof in on itself why is it so much of a strech to belive that between the burning fuel and the weight of the floors above would deffinently have colapsed then the way it happened.
No bombs, No missle, no demolision teams, just a plane full of jet fuel and the weight of the floors above the fire. 2 + 2 = 4

But the "explosions" that were heard just befor ethe buildings colapsed in on themselves, Um that was the concrete that made up the buildings buckleing and brakeing. Have any of you heard concrete brakeing from stress like that ? Well if you've ever watched a railroad rip down an old concrete structure it sure sounds like a hell of a bang before it falls down. I watched the CSX tear down an old concrete coaling tower, Now true there were indeed explosions but after the charges went off the structure was pulled over by huge craines and when those last 2 legs went in sounded like another explosion even tho it was just the building colapsing.

I think what you are talking about is a steel truss construction or bow truss more than likely what happens is the metal is thinner and warps which causes the stress that causes the roof to colapse. These type constructions are notorious in the firefighting field.

Quote:

So this is what the conspiricy theory is...

1. Planes fly into buildings.
2. The government orchestrates the demolition of a tower, a burning building with questionable structural integrity.
3. They sneak in with explosives, plant them in the appropriate area, undetected by the thousands of people trying to get out and hundreds of video cameras taping everything from everywhere.
4. Then, in a perfect implosion of a building that's wobbly to begin with, they kill innocent civilians, firefighters, army personel and police.

Nope, not buying it. Not enough time to plan where the explosives need to go, impossible to sneak past all those camcorders, no benifit to the US to do it.

well in the video the guy said that the power to the cameras was TURNED OFF, so there would be no cameras there to tape anything. The government has access to anything, so they could say they are inspecting the walls or something and plant explosives easily. do you just take what teh government tells you to believe and go with it? are you really that gullible. and why would they plant the bombs when this is going on, they do it weeks in advance, in this thing we call PLANNING. Greedy bastards like this dont care about who they hurt or destroy, they just need to make a profit and byt doing this is making a profit. maybe Osama had a vendetta against Saddam and paid us to do all this in order to oust him.

Hahahaha wrote:one more time.. The Fire dept evidence does not agree http://www.rense.com/general39/points.htm

Not determining the truth dishonours the memory of those who died. Not preventing furthur collapse by not investigating may lead to more death. Why were investigators denied access? Why was the evidence destroyed?

PAX

One problem with this theory is this... If kero burns at 875 f then why doesnt it heat the house to that temperatur? The answer is that it disapates in the air. The WTC concrete construction insulated the fire somewhat and concentrated the heat. While it may not have melted the steel structure it is entirely possible that the stucture did felx or bow (metal expands and contracts when heated) to the point where it could have failed. Its a possiblity at any rate. There is to much info and it can be biased in either direction to prove your case.

Rob S wrote:^^^^

Plane hitting the Pentagon and killing no one??? WTF are you talking about 189 people died there.

Anyways who gives a @!#$ that they wont release the tapes. All your going to see is a plane hitting a building killing many innocent victims. Do we really need to go and show and that on every damn news network and have two gazillion people sit and anayzle it for days on end. I dont think so, infact I dont want to see it is hard enough to watch the twin towers being hit with planes.

See heres the thing, how do you KNOW 189 people died there if no one has ever seen it? Where is all the proof that you so blindly follow?Show me, show me a picture, a video, anything that shows a 747 flying 10 feet above street lamps and trees in broad daylight and ill eat my hat.

The firefighters said they had two isolated fires and only needed two lines to put them out.

I also saw the thing on discovery and it made sense until I saw the explosions registered 2.0 on the ricter scale, and that debis was thrown upward and outward. On top of that the thermal hotspots after the colapse do not line up with the molten steel in the basement, indicating a fire of at least 3000 deg.F with no such combustables present. It has all the markings of high explosives. The white powdered concrete, the evidence of extremely high temps (maybe thermite), etc.. The time to fall is signifigant as well. It fell at the speed of gravity, unimpeeded, no resistance at all. On top of the, the firefighters saying that the fire was mostly out, and not indicating any concern about structural integrity in their radio conversations.

Your kerosene heater could never heat such a large space to the maximum flame temperature it can acheive, same with the interior of the buildings. I don't believe that the heat was insolated considering the huge gaping holes and the smoke pouring out.

I don't know if 875 is hot enough to soften the steel framework, but I do know it took 3000 deg to produce the molten steel found in the basement. I also know that the building was built much like a screen in a window. You can poke holes in it, but it still supports itself. It was designed that way on purpose, to withstand a 707 impact. I also know that no other building of this type has ever colapsed due to fire, yet 3 did that day. I know that 1 and 2 had renforced bulkhead type floors space throughout the structure to be able to support the entire structure above and that they should have at least slowed the collapse but it fell unimpeeded.

I cannot tell you what all this means, only that there is much more than meets the eye going on here.

Interesting that contractors had unimpeeded access to the building for the previous two weeks because of a combination of renovations and a security system failure. Why was FEMA practicing right off long island? Why was there a test of the FIA systems that day with 22 reported highjackings because of a symultanious drill (test)?

There are too many things that don't add up.

How did an airliner that vapourized while making a 16 foot entry hole also make a 16 foot exit hole? And leave behind parts that belong to a different type of aircraft?

PAX

Holy @!#$..i mean seriously how many time is this @!#$ thing gunna be posted and debated.

Im sick of debating the @!#$ pentagon. Everyone belive what they want to @!#$ belive. Our opinions and views arent gunna change @!#$.


To the people who thing the towers was a demolition job....are you seriously debating that fact that two planes flew into the WTC. I mean are you @!#$ serious

ShiftyCav wrote:
well in the video the guy said that the power to the cameras was TURNED OFF, so there would be no cameras there to tape anything. The government has access to anything, so they could say they are inspecting the walls or something and plant explosives easily.

So the government knew exactly which floor and from what direction a suicide bomber would fly in, so they would know where to place the explosives. That's a lot of confidence in pilots who aren't that experienced and MISSED hitting the Capitol building and the White House.

ShiftyCav wrote:do you just take what teh government tells you to believe and go with it? are you really that gullible. and why would they plant the bombs when this is going on, they do it weeks in advance, in this thing we call PLANNING. Greedy bastards like this dont care about who they hurt or destroy, they just need to make a profit and byt doing this is making a profit. maybe Osama had a vendetta against Saddam and paid us to do all this in order to oust him.

I don't think of myself as willing to accept government information as gospel without question. Nor do I think of myself as willing to accept any BS video that someone puts up on a website as gospel either.

And Osama paying us to oust Saddam? I think ShiftyCav missed one of his meds today...


John Wilken
2002 Cavalier
2.2 Vin code 4
Auto

Cory Forson wrote:
See heres the thing, how do you KNOW 189 people died there if no one has ever seen it? Where is all the proof that you so blindly follow?

How do you know you have a colon if you've never seen it?


The pentagon is a secured building, releasing the tape is not in the best interest of national security.




John Wilken
2002 Cavalier
2.2 Vin code 4
Auto

Quote:

So the government knew exactly which floor and from what direction a suicide bomber would fly in, so they would know where to place the explosives. That's a lot of confidence in pilots who aren't that experienced and MISSED hitting the Capitol building and the White House

are you retarded. they plated them throughout the bldg and you see all those little explosions, which didnt happen around where the planes hit, giving some kind of proof that little explosions were happeneing. this gives credit to those who say there were "bombs" going off. who knows if anyone was in the plane, maybe it was on autopilot

ShiftyCav wrote:are you retarded. they plated them throughout the bldg and you see all those little explosions, which didnt happen around where the planes hit, giving some kind of proof that little explosions were happeneing. this gives credit to those who say there were "bombs" going off. who knows if anyone was in the plane, maybe it was on autopilot

So planes on Autopilot are flown into the wtc, exactly where the government placed explosives. All this on the order of Osama so we could get Saddam, and make money doing it.

And you're suggesting that I'm retarded?



I maintain my position that ShiftyCav skipped some of his meds today.




John Wilken
2002 Cavalier
2.2 Vin code 4
Auto

In this theory the person states that the explosives were planted while there was a mandatory powerdown of everything about floor 48 or something like that I believe due to having to fix the radio/tv tower. The explosions seen as the towers were crumbling could also be explained by the debris falling inside the towers slamming onto a solid floor and pushing that air out through the window. Like I said we will probably never get the answer while good ol GW is in office or maybe ever. If it were found in anyway that the goverment was involved and GW had anything to do with it he should hang litterally for what he did.

No actualy the beams were big heavy steel I beams, right now they all look like pretzles
BUT I guess the CIA orcastrated the paper mill burning down right?

As for the Penagon a guy a used to work with is an MP in the national gaurd he was there the day of the attack he was called up and sent down to DC. They recovered so many bodies from the building some can never be IDed properly. Not to mention the body parts in the basement he talked about.

You people who insist this was OUR govt doing despritely NEED to grow up. You are shown 100% undenieable PROOF as to what happened but you refuse to see whats right in front of your faces. Put the National Inquirer down and back away slowly! You do know that the whole world isn't out to get you ( your not that important ) Please give some undisputable evidence for your saying this crap and not what some supermaret tablod says. And don't say its on line so it must be true. I could publish an internet site that says it has proof that purple unicorns exist would you believe that as well? Stop being so gulable as to believe everything you read. There is an old saying " Never believe what you read and only half of what you see" Its good to question things, but only to an extent after that your just makeing fools of yourselves.

DISCLAIMER: I am in no way calling any one person here a fool.



Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.

Quote:

So planes on Autopilot are flown into the wtc, exactly where the government placed explosives. All this on the order of Osama so we could get Saddam, and make money doing it.

So just because you cant fathom the idea of this means it cant happen.

OK, this has gone too far... Take the aluminum foil hats off, there is no government mind control ray, the space aliens aren't dressing up like TV news people, there is no 2 headed Elvis baby and Bill Gates isn't going to give you 2 cents for everyone you forward this email to.

What you're suggesting is well beyond anything based in reality. What possible motive would our government have for wiring the wtc buildings with explosives and flying planes into them?






John Wilken
2002 Cavalier
2.2 Vin code 4
Auto

They did it so all the brain surgens on the internet would have something to bitch about. No other real reason.

Of course proof isn't good enough for them as they know better.




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.

Quote:

What you're suggesting is well beyond anything based in reality. What possible motive would our government have for wiring the wtc buildings with explosives and flying planes into them?

What wouldnt be the motive. All of the evidence on ENRON went down in Building 7. is that a coincedence or what? And whats ENRON, another corrupt big business that had a scandal a couple of years before 9/11. Enron deals with energy(oil) - Bush likes oil - they might of had a financial relationship at one point? so tell me now that there is no conspiracy

Dude your reallllllly reachin.




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.

Bush and friends and such have way to many hands in way to many pots. There are all kinds of reason for them to do something like this. He has hired his friends companies to repair the damage done by many of the things he has done. His brother or cousin was the head of the agency responisble for the security system of the WTC. His ratings werent that good the election was a scandal he was looking for something to pin on Sadam and though he couldnt use this he could use the Taliban to blame. The leader is a Bin Laden good friend of the Bush family. What reason was there to suspect that the Taliban ran to Iraq in all of this? In order for them to get there its a 800+ mile trip through Iran. I could keep going but. There are reasons for someone in the goverment to do it when it benefits them. We dont think it would happen because we are think we are to moral of a country to have leaders that would do these things. So if you want to ask do I think its possible that our goverment had something to do about this absolutely I there there is a possiblity that the goverment could have had something to do with it I just doubt goog ol GW is smart enough to pull it off on his own.

I'm trying to start ish, I'm just asking for clarification, don't take this the wrong way Hahahaha

Hahahaha wrote:The firefighters said they had two isolated fires and only needed two lines to put them out.

What floor were they on?

Quote:

I also saw the thing on discovery and it made sense until I saw the explosions registered 2.0 on the ricter scale, and that debis was thrown upward and outward.

Up and out? Was this pre-collapse? What tower?

Quote:

On top of that the thermal hotspots after the colapse do not line up with the molten steel in the basement, indicating a fire of at least 3000 deg.F with no such combustables present.

What composition was the metal? If the metal was molten (not plastic), the sudden pressure that built up during the initial failure, the fall and then final settling and compacting would possibly explain that... due to the debris, you couldn't really see where each column support landed or how it might have twisted.

We can speculate, but really, there hasn't been a skyscraper yet that has had total failure, and none have been brought down (to my knowledge) yet in any controlled experiment, so there isn't a model that I know of that exists to predict how the tower would fall if detonated from within, or from total failure of all load-bearing members.

Also, one thing I have to ask is: if this were in fact a controlled demolition, how did the top floors of (WTC South? It had the antennae on it) one of the buildings manage to stay intact during the fall only to collapse on impact?

Quote:

It has all the markings of high explosives.

I'd like to see the GCMS composite analyses before I agree with that.

Quote:

The white powdered concrete, the evidence of extremely high temps (maybe thermite), etc..

The Fire Marshall's report didn't mention any trace or explosives residues found.

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The time to fall is signifigant as well. It fell at the speed of gravity, unimpeeded, no resistance at all. On top of the, the firefighters saying that the fire was mostly out, and not indicating any concern about structural integrity in their radio conversations.

Again, on what floor, and from what I remember seeing, there was accelleration in the initial failures, which indicated that there was some resistance. I'm only going by memory, mind you.

Quote:

Your kerosene heater could never heat such a large space to the maximum flame temperature it can acheive, same with the interior of the buildings. I don't believe that the heat was insolated considering the huge gaping holes and the smoke pouring out.

Pressurised kerosene acts differently than vaporised kerosene. If you look at the initial impact, there was a large fireball immediately proceeding the impact of the wings, and that would have been the pressurised cabin air spewing out. Also, you have to know that the oxygen systems onboard the aircraft (the little yellow facemasks that drop down after a drop in pressure) would have acted as a consistant accelerant (the chemicals don't react to fire, but when they react to eachother, they produce oxygen). The chemical, when spent, leaves a white and grey powered substance. The same thing was found in the debris of the ValueJet liner that crashed in the Florida Everglades... the original thought was high explosives, but it was ruled out... that was my original thought when you mentioned the powdered concrete.

Quote:

I don't know if 875 is hot enough to soften the steel framework, but I do know it took 3000 deg to produce the molten steel found in the basement.

The load-bearing members in the basement are a different formulation of steel in the basements... usually higher Manganese content if I remember correctly.

Quote:

I also know that the building was built much like a screen in a window.

I may be wrong about WTC 1 & 2, but most sky scrapers have an internal "spine" column set, and the floors are "hung" off that spine (of course, there's the exterior and secondary supports). If you knock out the central spine, you'll topple the building.

Quote:

You can poke holes in it, but it still supports itself. It was designed that way on purpose, to withstand a 707 impact. I also know that no other building of this type has ever colapsed due to fire, yet 3 did that day. I know that 1 and 2 had renforced bulkhead type floors space throughout the structure to be able to support the entire structure above and that they should have at least slowed the collapse but it fell unimpeeded.

Again, the determination wasn't fire, it was rapid failure due to metal fatigue (with aggrivating factors). Also, there hasn't been another building (with the exception of the Empire State building in the 40's) that has had a large aircraft collision. The floors that WTC 1 & 2 had were prone to failure in fire.

Quote:


I cannot tell you what all this means, only that there is much more than meets the eye going on here.

True, but in my mind, the only thing sinister that went on was in the actions of the 19 terrorists. We don't yet know what happened in full, I mean, down to the actual beam breakage... Once we know that, we'll be able to figure it out, but that's going to be a long time in coming IMHO.

Quote:

Interesting that contractors had unimpeeded access to the building for the previous two weeks because of a combination of renovations and a security system failure. Why was FEMA practicing right off long island? Why was there a test of the FIA systems that day with 22 reported highjackings because of a symultanious drill (test)?

I think that it's possible that there is a bunch of coincidences... I mean, look at it like this:
FEMA would have been working with the FAA for the drill, because, any aircraft downing is immediately under their jurisdiction, Long Island would have been easier to work in than NYC proper.

Also, if you figure that 50,000 people worked in the WTC complexes at any one time, I can't see a small town not having a few repair people or renovations happening at some time. It's not like you'll see a small army of people descend on the tower with little bags of blasting caps, and det-cord.

Quote:

There are too many things that don't add up.

How did an airliner that vapourized while making a 16 foot entry hole also make a 16 foot exit hole? And leave behind parts that belong to a different type of aircraft?

PAX

The parts, I haven't heard about, but, its not inconcievable that the aircraft was ferrying them to another point... it is done in the industry... a check of the cargo manifest should sort that out.

And the exit hole on the opposite side was the displaced materials and energy from the
impact. If you want to illustrate, think of a 3" thick piece of ballistic glass (bulletproof for lack of a better word), that has no polycarbonate film on the compartment side... fire a high velocity round into the glass, and you get a transfer of energy that forces some of the inner side of the glass into the compartment side. Now, use that idea, but instead of a bullet, you have a 767, and instead of ballistic glass, you have the WTC. Because of the speed of the projectile, and the fact that the interior of the building is more open than walled, you have debris that acts like very light density filler... it absorbs the energy of the impact and tends to move in the same direction of the blast. it's not inconcievable.

http://www.serendipity.li/wtc.html

It's an interesting read, but I'm not buying all of it... I'm of the mind that if someone wanted to pull that kind of a stunt, there would have had to have been horrendous amounts of OPSEC breeches. You can't keep that magnitude of a job under wraps, also the amount of explosives required to do that much of a job would have made a VERY big blip on the NSA's radar... they track that kind of thing. I think, personally, the cause of the collapses are there, but because of rescue/recovery efforts, and the fact that the building collapsed, there's not going to be a clear cut resolution for this disaster.

Sorry for the long ass post BTW.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

Quote:


Bush and friends and such have way to many hands in way to many pots. There are all kinds of reason for them to do something like this. He has hired his friends companies to repair the damage done by many of the things he has done. His brother or cousin was the head of the agency responisble for the security system of the WTC. His ratings werent that good the election was a scandal he was looking for something to pin on Sadam and though he couldnt use this he could use the Taliban to blame. The leader is a Bin Laden good friend of the Bush family. What reason was there to suspect that the Taliban ran to Iraq in all of this? In order for them to get there its a 800+ mile trip through Iran. I could keep going but. There are reasons for someone in the goverment to do it when it benefits them. We dont think it would happen because we are think we are to moral of a country to have leaders that would do these things. So if you want to ask do I think its possible that our goverment had something to do about this absolutely I there there is a possiblity that the goverment could have had something to do with it I just doubt goog ol GW is smart enough to pull it off on his own.

thats what ive been sayin all along. and yes he probably is a puppet of his father. you cant expect someone that pauses after every 3 words to be that smart.

Don't appoligize Gam its nice to see these goofy claims shot full of holes.

As for the construction of the buildings themselves they were built in quite the reverse from olded sky scrapers in that they didn't have an internal steel structure rather they
had the main steel supports on the outside to allow for more floor space. So you see
when the planes hit they damaged that exterior steel on the side it impacted into and then flew almost thru damageing the other side. Now all those upper flors just lost 50% of thier support from the impact. Then add fire fueled by jet fuel on the 2 remaining sides. As the steel failed the concrete tried to support itself and couldn't.
Those explosions were the concert failing under its own load. The dust? Um from concrete caveing in on itself and you wonder where the dust came from? And that 2.0
on the ricter scale well um do you think that maybe just maybe if you drop one freeking floor of a high rise down onto another do you think it could possibly make a big BOOM? Well there you go. Mystery solved.

And please don't ask the rediculous question about the pentagon and the planes wings. If you think that when you hit a reinforced concrete building you'll leave a perfect cut out then you've been watching too much Bugs Bunny. Those wings snapped right off. The remains of the plane boared into the building while on fire. Oh go ahead ask me about the windows!! I love this one!! Um, BLAST PROOF!! you want to know why they didn't get blown out? They did what they were designed to do! Good grief!




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.

ok, how many ppl actually watched the video? because it seems you guys are only arguing what other people are saying.


<img src="http://registry.gmenthusiast.com/images/jiggaman/personal_pic.jpg">

i think the whole org has watched that damn video..its been posted 100 times...


Some of you guys are rediculous. I think you are taking ur anger twords bush and turning it into all of this was a massive conspirisy.


I belive heavily in gov't coverups. I belive it @!#$ i bet alot of you have never heard of. But this is bull @!#$. I mean get @!#$ real. If someone actually cared to spend the time making a @!#$ video they could make one showing the exzact opposite of this guys video with facts to back it up...people can twist things any way they want...