I think Learning English is part of wanting a better life.
if not, they're here for money

You stay for the money, there's little difference. Try and tell me in a convincing way that if America was a decrepit and corrupt toilet of a country (easy now Keeper ) and you could move to a country with much greater prosperity, opportunity and money, that you'd stay in your @!#$-hole for more than a minute more than you absolutely needed to... let me know when you can do that.

The thing that a lot of people don't understand is that:
- Many of these people live in a community that is insular or doesn't require they learn english
- The people that don't learn english usually don't speak their own language properly.
- The English language isn't easy to learn if you come from a gendered language, especially if you're much older than in your teens unless you have the propensity.

I can understand that you want them to learn, it's better if they do, yada yada. The simple and immutable fact is that until there is an over-riding need to learn english, the ones that don't want to learn simply won't. Their kids will more than likely learn the language because it's a fact that learning 2 languages at once is easier than learning one and then learning another much later.

This isn't a new thing either, Chinese and Korean immigrants in the 1800's rarely learned the English language because they knew they rarely would live long enough to make use of it. Irish/Finnian immigrants didn't need to learn the language for the same reason, or because they saw the English language as the tongue of the Brits. Hell, Cubans have 1/3 of Miami turned into their own neighbourhood. Cajuns still speak creole or french or english, or spanish with relative fluency. Learning english is NOT imperative, but you should want to for ease of commerce and dealing with public offices. If you don't want to, that's your choice. Wal-Mart is simply after the extra money, so they decided to spend a few extra bucks on getting a spanish translation.... it's not undermining your way of life or some other tempest in a teapot: it's a corporation that wants to service as much clientele as is feasibly possible to increase their revenues. What's more American than that?

Diversity isn't a bad thing, there's give and take required. Ideally you both learn from each other. Getting pissed because of a single incident that really doesn't mean anything except that had to wait for about a minute means you're likely a stinking spoilt self-centered cunt. Don't get pissy that you're only JUST figuring out the world doesn't revolve around you. Suck it up.

BTW: I'm not saying this to anyone in particular, it's a broadly based comment on people that are getting pissed about others speaking another language. It's not JUST Americans that have this mental block.




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

To me, English sounds way better than Spanish
English is the business language of the world and like I said, if immigrants want a better life here in the United States of America, they need to learn how to speak proper English no matter where they live or where they came from.

Fallen Angel wrote:I think the reason Americans in general are so irritated by having to select a language boils down to in some sense respect. There ARE those who come to live here and flat out refuse to learn English... I think it's more respect and courtesy than anything (not saying Americans are the most respective and courteous people...)

I mean think about it this way... say we take everyone from the ORG and we all emmigrate to Sweden. We move to Sweden and instead of learning their native language, we basically demand them all to learn English so they can cater to us when we need something. (This is just a hypothetical situation here). Odds are they'd be offended by our attitude and lack of willingness to learn their language... afterall, they didn't force us to move to Norway.

Now I DO understand that many people that immigrate here do learn English or are trying to learn English. But just like everything else in life, it only takes a few bad apples to ruin it for everyone else. Take car modding for example. You have 2 groups of cars in a parking lot... Group A has heavily modded Hondas, J-bodies, Toyotas, whatever. Group B is a bunch of people hanging out in minivans. Who do you think the cops are going to go bother? Group A. A few stupid kids doing burnouts in parking lots, street racing etc ruin the "sport" for the ones who are respectful of other's property and the laws. But it only takes a few bad apples to ruin it for everyone else.

So those who move here and practically refuse to learn English ruin everything for those who do. Yes this country was founded or "built" by people who immigrated here from many countries, but there was a point where our ancestors adapted to this country and the other people in here. We had the English who landed here, primarily in the beginning... then take Pennsylvania for example. Pennsylvania had a large group of German immigrants many many years ago. A lot of Pennsylvanians share German ancestry... don't see a lot of people running around Pennsylvania speaking German anymore. (just a basic example)

There's nothing wrong with people coming here wanting a better life for themselves and their family. But even though we don't have an official language those who do come here should at least make an effort to learn English (with few exceptions, like the elderly... it's a lot harder for them to learn English coming from another country than it is those who are younger). Like with my Sweden example, I'm sure they wouldn't feel too happy about a bunch of us emmigrating there and demanding they learn English. A few years ago while waiting for my sister to come out from her doctors appointment, I ran out of cigarettes and walked up to a guy who was smoking. I went to ask him for a cigarette and he replied "no hablo ingles". I asked "habla espanol?" He replied "si". So I asked him "tiene un cigarillo?" So I was trying to talk to him in Spanish, and asked him how long he'd been in the US to which he replied he'd been here for FOUR YEARS!!!! Four years and couldn't speak a lick of English, or refused to speak it or acknowledge it.

Anyway... I'm done lol.

Very well said. That comparison between cars and people lol. Never thought of that before...

GAM: you mistake me. America is a decrepit toilet of a country who's leaders are driving it into the ground harder than Paramount Pictures' stock after the release of "Kazaam" , but what country isn't?

Anyhow, IMHO, locale is the standard for language, not country. For places as big as Canada and the U.S., how the hell could a single language be enforeced when even today communities don't comingle? As such, local slang runs into idioms which make a dialect, and if isolated for long enough become a language. That's not a big deal. That locale, however, should have the native-spoken language as the default.

Note: for those blindly patriotic bastards who love nothing more than to swing from the red-white-and blue beanbag of the american eagle, the U.S. in a whole is not a locale. a locale is at best, the size of a county out west, if not smaller.


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

screw patriotism! that's just a way to brainwash people into doing things for their country. (in other words, to take advantage of ppl)

and why does it bother certain people to have to press "1" for english? geeze it only takes 1/4 of a second to do so.... I really don't see what the big fuss is about, this isnt any different than a pre-k kid getting angry because he has to take a shower everyday..!

childish and immature, that just about sums it up

Pretty much. But again, whatever the "default" language is for the area should be the default. I also think that there should be the option for communication in majority languages not the default.

For instance, Spanish is very widely spoken all over the states, so a "por español, marke dos" or whatever is not a bad idea, because then you'll have someone that is not a native speaker, and likely can't communicate effectively in english, and then that would cause even MORE problems.

Extremely miniority languages, though, shouldn't need to have options in a locale. I can see ATM's having English, and Spanish in my area, but adding Sanskrit, Swahili, or Esperanto would just much things up.

Oh, and Robby, as a language, Spanish is FAR more refined than English could ever hope to be.


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

The difference between immigration now then in the past is that the immigrants now generally aren't assimiliating with the USA.

The US was/is called the melting pot - well immigrants, particularly spanish speaking, aren't mixing as much anymore.

I really don't want our country to change everything to accomodate immigrants - i really feel thats its a individual should adapt to their environment, not the other way.

EZ3K1EL wrote:I really don't want our country to change everything to accomodate immigrants - i really feel thats its a individual should adapt to their environment, not the other way.

The people defines the country, not the other way around.

Back to the Walmart teller, if you were in Bakhanistan and you enough of the language to get by but you came across an ATM that allows you the choice of Bakhanese or English, I'm sure you would want to pick English. It's just easier to deal with you native language no matter how much you're trying to fit in in a new country, and it's especially important if you're dealing with money so you can understand everything.


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ToBoGgAn wrote:we are gonna take it in the ass and like it, cause thats what america does.

Slo2pt2 (Projekt Unknown?) wrote:One my SON is ADHD N.O.S and Autistic Spectrum Disorder. I will nto medicate him he will battle throught this himself and learn to control it.

and also in the past Mexicans were able to cross the U.S border illegally and pay a 2-3,000.00 dollar fine, and take the citizenship test to become legal U.S citizens but,
After September 11 they can not do that anymore and they're screwed and I'm not sure if they can still take the citizenship test in Spanish even if they came with a visa because the INS is debating about making the immigrants learn the English language so I'm not sure, that's just what I heard on the news.

and Keeper haha
Spanish can be so sophisticated that its also complicated because you have to add extra words to whatever you want to say
Example:
if you want to say David's-Car in Spanish, you have to say
El-ca-rro-de-da-vid
it sounds like 6 words (only if you can not understand spanish)

press-two-for-Spanish
Pa-ra-es-pa-ñol-a-prie-te-el-nu-me-ro-dos
it sounds like 13 words or they're talking really dirty about your momma
and that's what pisses people of about Spanish.
It doesn't matter what they're talking about, its just the way it sounds; like they're talking bad about somebody and maybe that's why MDLD9's friend wrote @!#$ YOU MEXICANS on the "recite" (Receipt)
(
Its rude to speak spanish or anyother language around people who can not understand it.

I just mean it's refined as a language. The rules are set and same with pronounciation, word order, etc. Most of the latin-based languages are. Germanic ones, like English, are a lot less defined.

It could be worse--it could be a slavic language...no inflection and word order is not important...ouch!

And how a languiage sounds is also dependent on who's speaking it. A professer of English at Oxford would sound as diginified and professional in english as a professor in Spanish at the University of Madrid. The standard colloquial speak of your uneducated migrant worker shounds as bad as, say, Ebonics or a REALLY thick southern drawl backed up with the lack of education.

and as for rude--i'd say it all matteres in how you're speaking a foreign language around native speakers--if you're using your native language as a means to communicate with somene that can understand you because you're not good with the language of choice in that particualar locale, then fine. But, if you are using your native tongue JUST so you can insult people around you so they can't understand you, yes, then that's rude...

...and it's not just spansish speakers that do this.


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

My question is how many immigrants from the 19th and 18th centuries came to America and learned English? Now we have illegal immigrants coming over that are complaining because nobody speaks spanish when the Legal Mexican immigrants are learning English.


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* Student of the University of Oklahoma. Go Sooners!
*
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because they watch Telemundo and univision
duh!!!

James Larsen wrote:My question is how many immigrants from the 19th and 18th centuries came to America and learned English? Now we have illegal immigrants coming over that are complaining because nobody speaks spanish when the Legal Mexican immigrants are learning English.

Because the huge majority were from the UK anyway. They already spoke english in most cases. They may have dropped Galic, but they had English already.

The huge amount of Chinese? Well, they didn't learn the language did they(for the most part)? Their children did. Unless they were from Hong Kong, already spoke English. Indian? Yup, spoke English already. Germans? Mostly learn English in school there. Large Hungarian influx in the 50s? Most did learn, and it was new to them, but they are exceptions.

Current influx? Most do learn English, you are only thinking of the exceptions.

PAX


PS: This is what part of the alphabet would look like if Q and R were eliminated
- Mitch Hedberg (RIP)

EZ3K1EL wrote:The difference between immigration now then in the past is that the immigrants now generally aren't assimiliating with the USA.

The US was/is called the melting pot - well immigrants, particularly spanish speaking, aren't mixing as much anymore.

I really don't want our country to change everything to accomodate immigrants - i really feel thats its a individual should adapt to their environment, not the other way.

that's such fu.cking bu.ll@!#$. I spend incredible amounts of time in the Imperial Valley where the population is like 75% Mexican and everybody is bilingual.

You ignorant jerks here who think Mexicans coming over aren't trying to assimilate don't know what the hell you're talking about. I don't speak Spanish AT ALL and have never had trouble communicating with anyone... not in the WalMart (who defaults to English in a 75% Mexican area, BTW), not at the gas station, not the guys mowing my grandma's yard, and not even in the fields where I spent a summer working gaining some perspective on how good I have it not to be an immigrant.

AT WORST a recent immigrant will have rough english, but their kids will know and speak English just fine. That's how it's been for all immigrants.

You guys act like you were even born in the last immigrant wave to know who assimilated and how well. Let me tell you, in NYC there are STILL ethnic neighborhoods, where people STILL can look at each other or hear someone's last name and tell them exactly what caucasian ethnic background someone else is. So don't give me this assimilation crap.

All we know out here in CA is that you're white, you're brown, you're asian and you're latino.


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Quote:

You ignorant jerks here who think Mexicans coming over aren't trying to assimilate don't know what the hell you're talking about.

How come I go to Dunkin Donuts in NJ and I can't get an order because they don't speak English well at all, maybe the understand me a little, but can't reply. (and get a wrong order)

Why does my dad at work, calls a store in NJ and have to talk to 6 guys before he talks to someone who speaks English?

Why are some elementary schools in some areas teaching Spanish? Have other immigrants had their languages tought when they came over?

I think California is different than the east coast too, spanish people have been there alot longer.

You're also contradicting you're statement that immigrants don't try to assimilate by talking about the ethnic neighbourhoods in NYC...

Someone is willing to spend money for people to speak English

I fail to see whats wrong with teaching spanish in school...?

The truth of the matter is as long as they are able to:
Watch TV in Spanish
Hear the Radio in Spanish
Communicate with their boss, family and friends in Spanish
Eat Spanish foods (GOYA Here we come!!)
Have Español as a choice at the store, bank, post office or whatever
They will not be forced to Learn the English Language because they don't @!#$ NEED IT!!!!
I believe that if they're able to watch, hear, communicate and eat in Spanish, why should they have to put up with English? Unless is the INS hehe
and if there's a situation where they can not communicate in Spanish; so what?
Little Jesus can translate for them because is a lot easier to learn a different language when you are younger.

The truth of the matter is as long as they are able to:
Watch TV in Spanish
Hear the Radio in Spanish
Communicate with their boss, family and friends in Spanish
Eat Spanish foods (GOYA Here we come!!)
Have Español as a choice at the store, bank, post office or whatever
They will not be forced to Learn the English Language because they don't @!#$ NEED IT!!!!
I believe that if they're able to watch, hear, communicate and eat in Spanish, why should they have to put up with English? Unless is the INS hehe
and if there's a situation where they can not communicate in Spanish; so what?
Little Jesus can translate for them because is a lot easier to learn a different language when you are younger.

alright, so I didn't read all the replys, but here is my take on it (and the Walmart here defaults to Spanish too And there is a State University in town)

They expect that Those of you who speak english are smarter than those that don't (or won't learn it) and are here in the US, so if you aren't smart enough to select English, then for your safety (because if I have to wait any longer in a walmart line then need be, your going to get hurt) it defaults to Spanish.....

But thats just my take on it.



Everything Louder than Everything else

EZ3K1EL wrote:

Quote:

You ignorant jerks here who think Mexicans coming over aren't trying to assimilate don't know what the hell you're talking about.

How come I go to Dunkin Donuts in NJ and I can't get an order because they don't speak English well at all, maybe the understand me a little, but can't reply. (and get a wrong order)

It's either:
- no kid that is going to do that kind of job for sh*t pay.
- the owner doesn't want to pay minimum wage, and is cutting corners.

Quote:

Why does my dad at work, calls a store in NJ and have to talk to 6 guys before he talks to someone who speaks English?

See previous statement.

Quote:

Why are some elementary schools in some areas teaching Spanish? Have other immigrants had their languages tought when they came over?

German is taught in schools, and so is actual English (as in without slang or regional inflection).

Quote:

I think California is different than the east coast too, spanish people have been there alot longer.

So have native indians, actually FAR longer than either Spanish or English.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

canadians learned english, why can't mexicans do the same?

GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:
So have native indians, actually FAR longer than either Spanish or English.

By some of the posters logic we should all be speaking Native american languages since they were the first immigrants .

Spike: you mean... you dont?

how sad.


Robby: Now if we could just get you Americans to start speaking it, and spelling properly. tsk tsk tsk




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

I knbow a little Algonquin..

The bonus is that it wasn't a written language, so I can spell the words however I like..

Kway Kway Pucca Kwan

PAX




PS: This is what part of the alphabet would look like if Q and R were eliminated
- Mitch Hedberg (RIP)