Smus - No problem... Respect if we all just had it for each other the world would be a lot better off
Who cares????????....whats for lunch tomorrow?
There is absolutely nowhere in the Bible that sayd the Eart is of any age, it does not say at all. Also it does not say the Earth was created in 6 (Earth) days, not 6x24 hours.. A day is a light period preceeded and followed by darkness.. No more, no less.
Implying what you want to read into Bible text is bad, very bad. Yes, read the Bible, do not put your own pre-concieved notions into it.
Find me one single scrap of evidence that Bible supports a young Earth.
Anyone who supports the theory is not getting it from the Bible but from some person who told them that what it says.. It does not..
PAX
My thoughts:
The Earth, God(s) or no God(s), is far to f*cked up to be only 10,000 years old. A Cluster-f*ck of this magnitude cannot happen in such a short period of time.
Goodbye Callisto & Skaši, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
#1. The Bible never gave a length of the days. You can ALMOST be sure that 1 day in the Bible was not 24 hrs, but rather much longer.
But onto the real debate here.
How can you honestly believe that we all came from nothing? It has be proven that mass (tangible things) can neither be created or destroyed, rather its shape and form can be changed to created other things. When you burn something it is not destoryed, rather it is turned into ash and energy.
There is proof of life before Jesus, life before the Bible. There were many ancient civilizations before those spoken of in the Bible. There have been artifacts and fossils found and dated to those times. Also there are the fossilized remains of dinosaurs. How can you explain that? Please dont tell me that you seriously think someone planted them there.
Charles Darwin's theory of evolution, although still just a theory, is well founded. It is also evident in the life around us. Plant and animals adapt to their surroundings. Granted the adaptaions happen over hundreds of thousands of years, but they happen. There is proof of this phenemeon.
Now I'm in no way saying the the Bible is all false information. There have been relics and such found that coincide with things from the Bible. I'm sure there was a man named Jesus, who had a mother named Mary. However, i find it hard to believe that she became pregnant without having contact with sperm, its just not possible.
I could go on and on, but the fact still remains that the Earth is billions apon billions of years old and nothing will change my mind about that. So please no more, "The Bible is right just because it is" or "becuase the Bible says so". At least give a well thought out and intelligent reason behind your thoughts.
Tristan wrote:Same reason they have found people frozen that are preserved quite well and not fossilized.
I want a shot.
Explain to me how a star that is 4 billion light years away can be seen if the Earth is only 6000 years old. According to the Bible as you read it, everyhing was created in six days..stars, sky, earth, sun, etc.
That means it should still take another 3,999,999,4000 years before we should be able to see that star.
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AGuSTiN wrote:Tristan wrote:Same reason they have found people frozen that are preserved quite well and not fossilized.
I want a shot.
Explain to me how a star that is 4 billion light years away can be seen if the Earth is only 6000 years old. According to the Bible as you read it, everyhing was created in six days..stars, sky, earth, sun, etc.
That means it should still take another 3,999,999,4000 years before we should be able to see that star.
Technically the light would have been already travelling to where the earth was going to be, 4 billion years prior.
6000 years old is utter religious bullshlt.
RatZero aka RatBastard wrote:
Technically the light would have been already travelling to where the earth was going to be, 4 billion years prior.
6000 years old is utter religious bullshlt.
1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Sounds to me like God created the stars and Earth on the same day. And since titus believes a day is 24hrs since he believes the earth is only 6000 years old, then my calculations are correct.
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Keeper - As incredibly f*cked as the world is, given the tendencies of man, I believe its nothing short of a miracle that the world is as good as it is now, not that its really good.
^^^i don't. I think it's because nature fights back.
See also: Steve Irwin, Indonesia, and New Orleans.
All nature needs is a better way to kill us.
Goodbye Callisto & Skaši, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
Keeper- Well the climate change that will most likely take place because of the damage we've done to the atmosphere might just be that better way.
nah, there will be enough of us to survive...after all, AIDS didn't even put a dent in us.
I'd actually hope a Shoemaker-Levy would befall us...that would do the trick.
Goodbye Callisto & Skaši, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
Yeah I don't think the climate will wipe us out either but It may make a significant dent, also I think we have the technology at this point that with enough warning a comet could be thrown off course by us.
Doubtful...mostl likely it ould break one up into smaller chunks...like Shoemaker-levy.
A comet has a nucleus that is bigger than a mile. In order for us to render a comet (much less an asteroid) useless would be for it to be able to blow up a sizabe chunk of that...which would mean that, and i'm guessing here, we'd have to make a nuclear weapon that would be capable of blowing at least a half-mile size crater *into* the ground, that can't be done with our technology. our only hope would be a blast that would send it off course, and if were off on it, we'd either have a breakup, which would be worse, or it wopuldn't be knocked off of course and would fall into orbit--likely a decaying one, leaving us no better off.
i thinkl the chances of doing so are so slim that they could fit between Roseanne and a Buffet.
Goodbye Callisto & Skaši, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
Breaking up the comet is a bad idea for sure and most likely not possible, thats why an indirect blow to knock it off course, assuming it is still hundreds of millions of miles away, where a minute change in its path can cause it to miss us by a great distance is the best bet and feasible to achieve.
^^^^
You guys are thinking to small!
100 Rockets could do the trick
10,000 years no
6 billion no
somewhere in between yes
I believe
10,000 years 6billion
|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| <--where I believe
Simply because you cannot deny the fossils, though in actuality I really do question alot of the reports.
After all the most accurate method there is is carbon dating, and that doesn't exactly work in the scales of billions or even millions now does it.
And I hate people who say, well it has so and so plant found in it therefore it must be 4billion years old, and yet the plant people will say oh well this dinosaur eat it so therefore the plant must be 4 billion years old.
And to show you how ridiculous speculating the earths age is.
I live near UCSC, pretty much the we are hippies yet absolutely hate "God" (but damn it we love all other religions beucase we treat everyone equal right?!), and also next to some extremely republican cities, that I travel to alot.
I LOVE going to speeches where professors "debate" (I said so therefore it is right here are facts, OMFG N00BS) what they believe.
I go to as many as I can and guess what. If you question only about half the facts, after each speech you could easily swing either way. Both use so much manipulation of facts, or blaring oversights that if you believe differently, I seriously question your ability to rationalize through what people tell you is fake and real.
Everyone who tries to prove one way or the other has an agenda, plain and simple. No one wants to base all their research on creation, and then find out whoops it actually evolved and vice versa, these people have to big a head to let that happen.
It really is true, you dig deep enough and you will find whatever you want to. After all both sides have scientifically proved that they are right in their minds.
i dont think anyoen said 6 billion.
the running total is 4.5x i believe.
i dont think i have EVER been to a conference or watched a video in which a religion gave me ANY reason to question sciences possition on the earths age and its formation. and if plausable ideas were given to me id be more than willing to look in to them farther. but alas, ive hear NOTHING that even makes sense.
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Nathaniel O'Flaherty wrote:
i dont think i have EVER been to a conference or watched a video in which a religion gave me ANY reason to question sciences possition on the earths age and its formation. and if plausable ideas were given to me id be more than willing to look in to them farther. but alas, ive hear NOTHING that even makes sense.
That's because the people who believe that, when asked for proof or a source, always go right back to the Bible. They use the Bible to prove the Bible.
I'd love for my professor to ask me "How can you prove your argument from page 1?" and I say "Which my statement from page 3".
That'd go over real well.
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Smus ran out of posts wrote:Evolution happens. Thats why we're taller than our ancestors, its evolution.
Well a much higher protein diet has alot to do with that as well - if not everything to do with it. Although I don't deny evolution happens nor do I think the earth is that young. IIRC scientist are currently thinking that the universe itself is 24 billion years old.
LiquidFireCavy (mdk) wrote:How can you honestly believe that we all came from nothing? It has be proven that mass (tangible things) can neither be created or destroyed, rather its shape and form can be changed to created other things. When you burn something it is not destoryed, rather it is turned into ash and energy.
Someone else asked that question in another thread - therefore I'm gonna do the lazy thing
and quote my post in that thread.
ME in an old thread wrote:Jeremy Knox wrote:Actually, here's a little bit of particle physics info... "creation" is completely impossible. Nothing in the universe has ever been created or destroyed. Nothing.
You burn down a house, the house is still there, it's been transformed into soot and ash and 0.8 micron sized particles. It's not gone, just in another form. The whole "Big Bang" theory is being seen as less and less scientific as time goes on. A huge explosion created matter? HOW?????? Explain the mechanics of that. No such thing is possible in the universe.
Jeremy Knox wrote:[Energy isn't matter, energy is caused by matter like when you make a wave in water by moving your arm in it. It's not creation.
The universe has no boundaries. There isn't a finite amount of matter because the universe is infinite. It never ends. It just goes on forever. Just like it has no age and no time. What's going on now is just a neverending cycle of one thing being transformed into another.
Funny that you say on one hand that matter cannot be created(which is true), and yet you go to say that matter is infinite... Major contradiction there.
ME wrote:Actually, here's a bit of particle physics info... for you Jeremy
ENERGY(by all common definitions and in any form that we can directly use) IS MATTER. It is composed of sub-atomic particle just like everything commonly considered matter, it is simply in another form.
Although for some other "forms" of energy(the kind we cannot DIRECTLY harness) - magnetism and gravity for example - we have yet to determine what they are made of - if they are even "made of anything" at all - and how/why they do what they do. We know they exist and we know what they do, but that is about it.
Electricity(for a super-common example of energy) is only the result of electrons moving in an attempt to correct an imbalance - for example. But how do those electrons know there is an imbalance in another area, and (since they require a complete path) how do they know that doing so will correct the imbalance. A curious question has been haunting scientist(including Steven Hawking for example) for a long time - how do other particles seem to "know" the position of all other particles? They have come up with the "holographic universe" theory - which if you study it, well it is more fantastic/ridiculous than anything, or any story from ANY religion - hell, any common fiction writer. Plus it really doesn't answer as many questions(even then very poorly) as it creates. It is just another "It is because it is - so just accept it" answer. "Scientific" theories like that would be more correctly categorized as religion.
Now creation IS possible - here's how. Supposing this matter has not always existed, and considering that physics (as we know it) only applies to matter(which includes energy - as we know it)(difficult concept for some. I know) - translation = physics are the laws governing the behavior of matter(/energy) - if you suppose there was once no matter(as we know it), then in turn you must assume there was once no physics(as we know it). It is therefore quite possible.
Also, if there is a God(as I fully believe there is), you could think of God (in simplified terms) as a computer programmer. He who writes the code makes the rules. Therefore it would be God who wrote the laws of physics, therefore dictating the behavior of the matter he is creating. Saying that creation would be impossible for God is like - saying that creating a game is impossible because the binary code of the game does not allow for creation or destruction of objects. Well needless to say the programmer has a little more say to that than does the program he created. Its not so hard to change a program, in fact you can do it in real time if you are willing/able to manipulate the ram it is running it(although certain drastic changes would take skill and exact timing to not crash it lol). Maybe you have a PlayStation, and maybe you own a Gameshark. The laws of the game may say that infinite HP is impossible, the Gameshark may have something else to say about that
Its not such a stretch to assume that a God who could create a universe could also manipulate it as well. Pretty much all of the "impossible miracles"(namely things considered impossible because they can't possibly happen due to random occurrence) in the Bible or (any book actually) are in fact possible if a God powerful enough to create a universe wanted it to happen. If God wanted to change the boiling point of water - I see know reason why it couldn't be done(not that I see any reason for God to want to do that lol).
Jeremy Knox wrote:Here is basically what science is beginning to find out: #1 The universe has no "end", no center and no edge. #2 The universe never "began", it has always been. Time doesn't exist. #3 Matter is only transformed from one form to another, it can't be destroyed or created. It just is.
Weird eh? As mortal creatures it boggles the mind to imagine that something never "began" and on whom time has no effect but that's how the universe works. But facts are facts. What have we ever seen that has "begun"? Answer me that, and think about your answer really really carefully
So... Science is beginning to find out what I figured out when I was 7-8 years old?! LOL - I hope not... All that is correct it's just the whole "science is beginning to find out" part that cracks me up - especially if it is true
Seriously though, all those conclusions are pretty obvious when you think about them.
1. Even if you have a limit as to where there is no matter(as we know it) yet, there is a lack of matter we like to call "vacuum." True vacuum is literally nothing - nothing at all - a complete absence of anything. The only limit of "nothing" is where "something" begins. Since everywhere that vacuum exist is in fact somewhere that matter can (but doesn't currently) exist, there is no limit to the potential size of the universe. The amount(mass) of matter that can potentially occupy that infinite space - is limited however.
2. Well if there was no creator, then yes the universe must have always existed in some form or another - but that raises alot of other problems - how/why does it exist etc etc - you are back to square one in explaining anything about it.
Time? It is a fictitious concept created by man to help us keep track of things - much like the Inch, the Liter, or "Horse Power" - none of these describe an object that exists. E=MC^2 works on a graph but that is about it. There is no such thing as time - therefore no "time travel" is possible. The only equivalent to "time travel" would be to put all matter in the state it was previously in at a particular point in "time" - and you wouldn't be "travelling" anywhere through "time" as much as your sub-atomic particles would be re-arranged into the state they where in at that point in "time." I'd be impressed if Science ever got to a point where that is possible - and if they ever pulled it off, then our universe would be in an infinite loop - LOL.
3. Nothing much to say there - it is obvious enough. However since you don't consider energy to be matter, and since matter can be transformed into energy, then by that logic matter can be destroyed and energy can be created - so you see the founding principle of "matter(/energy) can neither be created or destroyed" is that matter and energy are one and the same. 
Seriously, I figured out as much as all that at 7-8 years old(lets just say that I wasn't exactly a jock at that point in my life -lol). If scientist are ONLY NOW figuring all that out, I'm deeply saddened as to the state of scientific advance. Then again it took a long time for most civilizations to figure out the concept of ZERO - so I shouldn't be so surprised. But that really shows just how advanced mankind's intelligence IS NOT - on the whole.
Quote:
jump in the water with a shark or jump in front of a bear and tell me wether you have domain over that creature.
(reloads shotgun - bear?... check)(reloads spear-gun - shark?... check) (reloads one of the millions of weapon variations man has made - just for the hell of it)LOL Last time I checked, the only creature we haven't killed is the creature we haven't even discovered yet or one that has yet to evolve into existence. I wouldn't say that makes us superior, but it does make us dominant.
Keeper - who said anything about God making us permanently dominant? Also - Dominance doesn't have to be 100% control either. A political party with 51% of the vote can still be the dominant party.
ME wrote:changing the subject
All in all, I can't say I trust any particular version of the Bible completely, or any part of it 100% - since I wasn't there when God was handing it out( I generally pray for meaning when I'm not so sure). There is massive potential for mistranslation(or even bad secretarial work in writing down what he says as he says it). The word "day" could mean something different to God, or maybe the word "day" is the wrong word to use entirely... could be better stated as "age," "day in age," etc etc or maybe even something completely un-translatable to any Latin-base language.
Also, I hate it when the books written purely by Jesus's disciples are taken "as the word of God" - noting that John(for example) was a man and therefore not infallible, therefore I'll take the books of John purely as "John's word" rather than as"God's word." That doesn't mean that John is wrong or anything - but simply being included in the Bible - doesn't actually mean that he is right either. I assume that it is probably accurate enough, but I won't place 100% certainty behind that assumption.
All in all I have no reason to think that there is no evolution. But I have even less reason to believe that evolution is completely random.
Back to you...
LiquidFireCavy (mdk) wrote:There is proof of life before Jesus, life before the Bible. There were many ancient civilizations before those spoken of in the Bible. There have been artifacts and fossils found and dated to those times. Also there are the fossilized remains of dinosaurs. How can you explain that? Please dont tell me that you seriously think someone planted them there.
Common mistake there. Yes there was life before Jesus - even the Bible would tell you as much. But the New Testiment(this is where Jesus comes in) is much more recent than anything in the Old Testament(BTW the Old Testament is the Jewish book of faith) - which some of it is as old as civilization itself. There might be religions as old as Judiasm - but none older. Even the oldest civilizations had at least some form of religious symbolism and/or beliefs.
LiquidFireCavy (mdk) wrote:Now I'm in no way saying the the Bible is all false information. There have been relics and such found that coincide with things from the Bible. I'm sure there was a man named Jesus, who had a mother named Mary. However, i find it hard to believe that she became pregnant without having contact with sperm, its just not possible.
Impregnating an egg without a sperm - impossible? I'd bet scientist will be able to do that within 20 years or less. Not so impossible after all. Now for a being of infinite power(if he holds all the strings then God has such power) - this is nothing. A being capable of creating a universe would have less than no trouble doing such a thing.
Problem is that you're thinking a little too much inside the box in terms of God. Just because you and I can't do something doesn't mean that God would have such a limitation. I still chuckle at the idea of programming a mini-universe, writing all the rules(akin to our physics laws) and creating self replicating AIs inside of it - I would have infinite power as the creater/programer - but if I kept my hands off and let them live their own lives - they would eventually conclude that me "creating"(programming) their universe was impossible and that I don't exist.
I've never heard of this "part throttle" before. Does it just bolt on?
Quote:
Common mistake there. Yes there was life before Jesus - even the Bible would tell you as much. But the New Testiment(this is where Jesus comes in) is much more recent than anything in the Old Testament(BTW the Old Testament is the Jewish book of faith) - which some of it is as old as civilization itself. There might be religions as old as Judiasm - but none older. Even the oldest civilizations had at least some form of religious symbolism and/or beliefs.
that is just wholey untrue.
so in this case ill ask you, when do you believe the oldest civilization with a form of religion existed? and when do you think judaism started?
even as recent as the presocratic founder of natural philosphy Thales had no view of a monotheistic 1 god idea. and that was in 630bce.
numerous generations of philosophers came after thales and it took MANY MANY MANY generations for the idea of maybe there is 1 god to be fleshed out.
and all that is actually pretty recent in terms of the first civilization which were starting around 9000-8000 bce.
so im not sure what you mean when you say there are no religions older than judaism. its just completely untrue.
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Quote:
That's because the people who believe that, when asked for proof or a source, always go right back to the Bible. They use the Bible to prove the Bible
exactly... I had a "fun" <sarcasm> debate started by my Mom that I had to dive head-first into against my will. I never want to debate it because my aunt and uncle are "Born-agains", the worst kind of fundamentalist. They believe the Earth is 6K years old. All I can say is that I tore them apart
We have written civilizations that are 6K years old. There are SUB-fossil human remains that old and even older. If humans and the Earth are that old, where do the dinosaurs fit? Forget dinosaurs, where do the trilobites, armored fish, and all the ancient life fit in? And why is there no record of human bones being found with them? And if they lived with humans, then why are all of these fossils fully fossilized and humans are not? Why is there not ONE fossil from the age of the dinosaurs that has lived with man? And contrary to what was said earlier, there is no frozen dinosaur remains or intact RBC's from dinosaurs, nor is there any valid fossil bed with humans and dinosaurs together!
Going away fro mthe Earth, there is plenty of evidence in the Universe that it is billions of years old. Star and planet formation takes far too long to be on that time scale. Plus, that time scale does not allow for evolution which takes millions of years. We do not see the same fossils at the bottom of the fossil bed as we do at the top. The creatures are all different and go from more primitive to more advanced with a few forms retaining the same form (evolutionary deadends perhaps).
About dating, there are other isotopes besides C-14 that are far more reliable and have half-lives of millions or billions of years. This stuff is all fact.
I want to hear real science from one of these wackos that believes the Earth is that young
how can people that live from an avg of 50-70yrs determine that something is billions or millions of yrs old? the reason people believe(me included) that the earth is around 6thousand is because the Bible shows of a relationship between God and man and this gives us special meaning. pf o ;ppl arpimd everything is created with a beginning and an end. people live and they die. animals live and they die. watches are built they run and then they eventually break. same goes for everything. so yes we do evolve so to speak but not in the manner of changing your whole chemistry such as fins to legs. carbon dating is a joke. i dont believe scientists on that and i wont until they come up with a cure for simple things like a cold. if u cant cure a cold how am i supposed to believe the earth is billions of yrs old?
