^^^that should also include kids, with one or both parents, in which the parents are. not. doing. their. job.
The problem, as I see it, is when parents start looking at their progeny as their legacy and their impact on the world/genepool and stop looking at them as a fashion/societal accessory.
In that case, i say keep the kids and abort the parents, preferrably with a battering-ram to the genitals.
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The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
A battering ram soaked in Drano and Easy Off.
nah, that's cruel and unusual punishment <j/k>
I'd be all for that
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The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
AGuSTiN wrote:sndsgood wrote:
heres something to chew on agustin. chances are pretty good that if those 1/500 adults could adopt the children they would. i know of a few close friends that have gone to china to adopt because it was way to hard to adopt in the us. less red tape and less cost to adopt a kid from china, and i know that they probalby spent about 10 grand when it was all said and done to go thru china rather then in the u.s. political redtape has just as much to do with why the kids arnt adopted as anything.
secondly you state that 1/3 of foster kids end up in prison,welfare etc.etc.etc. but um doesnt that mean that 2/3 of them dont. the way you state it is like saying lets kill these 3 kids becaue one of them will turn out bad. that to me is kinda an odd way of thinking.
and just on a side note, were all wrong in this post because the original poster just wanted to know who was repulican not get into a war like it has.
First of all, you're guessing. Second, I'm not. So unless you've got some hard #'s to counter my claims, what you think is the problem isn't meaning a whole lot.
Like I said, I'm very involved in the issue. The primary reason people don't adopt is because they ...
1) Don't know where to go to get resources on adopting. You send your friends to me and I'll forward them to the right people as far as adoption help, resources and grants. Adopting kids from China is NOT cheaper. On one hand, you're right. But people give up too easily as it takes 20 minutes on Google to find these resources. So on the other hand, people aren't as motivated to adopt as they want to think they are.
2) Are concerned about the physical and mental well being of the child. Here are some more #'s...
Americans think 42% of adopted children and 62% of foster children are more likely than others to have problems at school. Another 37% view the amount of time in foster care as a concern.
50% had academic problems, 22% reported very severe post traumatic disorders
People are SCARED to adopt.
Quote:
secondly you state that 1/3 of foster kids end up in prison,welfare etc.etc.etc. but um doesnt that mean that 2/3 of them dont. the way you state it is like saying lets kill these 3 kids becaue one of them will turn out bad. that to me is kinda an odd way of thinking
That's not what I said. Further, you're not reading the stats right. That's not the SAME 1/3, and that's a 1/3 of general, invidually, for each statistic. The bottom line stat there is that 80% of our prison population has been through foster care. That's the telling stat that our system is failing, and no one is caring.
Here's another stat... only 2%...just TWO PERCENT, of all foster kids graduate college.
What my PROBLEM is that so-called compassionate conservatives want to do away with abortion and are just going to let these kids rot under the parental guidance of a government they say sucks at doing everything else.
I'll tell you what, you want to put this in the Democrats court? Conservatives should start a movement today to adopt every single kid, and once that's done I propose to start limiting abortions to extreme circumstances. But abortion becomes available again the moment there are 1000 kids back in the adoption buffer.
We don't make abortion illegal, we make kids without families illegal.
willing to fly across the globe and make a few trips i belive it was 3 trips. and all the time he told me they put into it makes me think that they were pretty involved with trying to adopt. not knowing wich hoop to jump thru doesnt meant they didnt try. if your very involved with it then that doesnt nessicarily mean its not hard to adopt it just means you know wich hoops to jump thru to get it done. just saying they didnt do their homework is as you mentioned to me just a guess on your part. from how you mentioned it your looking at the problem from the inside. those trying to adopt are on the outside.
i dont really consider it as the SYSTEM failing kids i see it as parents failing kids. but in reality some stats dont mean allot to me. 2% of foster kids go thru college. i never went to college and im living a great life so just because most of them dont go thru college doesnt nessicarily mean that 98% of them are a burden on society or living a horrible life.
id somewhat lump myself into a compassionate conservative in a broad sence. and i dont want any kid to be under the parental guidance of the goverment. every kid should be under the guidance of their parents.to me this isnt a democrat or republican issue, its a people issue, its a society issue. people need to take responsibility for their actions.
to me i just dont think its right to murder a child just because there are kids out there to adopt. maybe my values are just all out of whack because i believe in taking care of my mistakes and being responsible
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sndsgood wrote:
willing to fly across the globe and make a few trips i belive it was 3 trips. and all the time he told me they put into it makes me think that they were pretty involved with trying to adopt. not knowing wich hoop to jump thru doesnt meant they didnt try. if your very involved with it then that doesnt nessicarily mean its not hard to adopt it just means you know wich hoops to jump thru to get it done. just saying they didnt do their homework is as you mentioned to me just a guess on your part. from how you mentioned it your looking at the problem from the inside. those trying to adopt are on the outside.
i dont really consider it as the SYSTEM failing kids i see it as parents failing kids. but in reality some stats dont mean allot to me. 2% of foster kids go thru college. i never went to college and im living a great life so just because most of them dont go thru college doesnt nessicarily mean that 98% of them are a burden on society or living a horrible life.
id somewhat lump myself into a compassionate conservative in a broad sence. and i dont want any kid to be under the parental guidance of the goverment. every kid should be under the guidance of their parents.to me this isnt a democrat or republican issue, its a people issue, its a society issue. people need to take responsibility for their actions.
to me i just dont think its right to murder a child just because there are kids out there to adopt. maybe my values are just all out of whack because i believe in taking care of my mistakes and being responsible
Your friends flew across the globe 3 times? I call bullsh1t. That'd of cost more than just paying the standard adoption fees w/o assistance.
Again, you're badly interpreting stats wrong. Just because 2% graduate college, doesn't mean that 98% are burdens. It ONLY means 2% graduate college. I'm trying to show you that foster kids do worse than non-foster kids by WIDE margins to bolster my claim that the government is not a good mommy and daddy.
You can't separate the system failing kids from the issue. First, the parents fail the kids, absolutely. Then, the system. Then the 81.2 million adults who don't even look into helping. Society fails these children. That means me, you, him, her, all of us.
I'm not saying we should murder kids because there are already kids out there. I surely didn't abort any of my children and they both came unplanned. I sucked it up, got a better job, etc. What I'm saying is there is no contingency plan for all the unwanted kids that will be born once abortion is illegal.
How do you think society is going to hold up with 300-500,000 kids being born every year who aren't wanted?
---
I think if we eliminate laws protecting people from themselves, and kids from harm, then that might not only cull that number, but reduce the amount of adults that would likely have abortions and/or pumping out kids like a slut machine and giving them to the state to take care of and shirking responsibility.
Something to think about. Right now though, i think the only hope for humanity is that we split into the Eoli andf the Morlocks. (bonus for those that get that reference)
Goodbye Callisto & Skaši, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
sorry im bad at quoting here.
"Again, you're badly interpreting stats wrong. Just because 2% graduate college, doesn't mean that 98% are burdens. It ONLY means 2% graduate college. I'm trying to show you that foster kids do worse than non-foster kids by WIDE margins to bolster my claim that the government is not a good mommy and daddy."
your right that stat only means that 2% graduate. but your equating having a college degree to being better then someone without. just because they do not graduate doesnt equate to living a poor destitue life.
"Your friends flew across the globe 3 times? I call bullsh1t. That'd of cost more than just paying the standard adoption fees w/o assistance."
call what you want. but im not one to lie, let alone lie to win an internet debate. i know that they flew over twice at least and when i had talked to them they were hoping to bring him back on the second time but at the time i had talked to them it wasnt set in stone at that point wether it was or not. i just remmber hearing them talk about it all the issues that arose trying to adopt and i was kinda shocked at how tough it was. that was my whole point that they wound up spending all that money flying over there etc dealing with another country and found it easier then dealing with the u.s.
"I'm not saying we should murder kids because there are already kids out there. I surely didn't abort any of my children and they both came unplanned. I sucked it up, got a better job, etc. What I'm saying is there is no contingency plan for all the unwanted kids that will be born once abortion is illegal.
How do you think society is going to hold up with 300-500,000 kids being born every year who aren't wanted?"
im glad you didnt decide to do that, that shows your a stand up individual and those are the types of things we should be teaching. i just disagree with the whole abortion should be allowed because thre are allot of kids in foster care. that to me isnt a valid excuse for abortion. we have actually talked about adopting another kid now that we have had nolan. but that would be down the line and right now i find it tough just taking care of him. my stance doesnt deal with stats it deals with how i feel about the situation. my mom gave up her first child to adoption. and although my mom got intouch with her after so many years and found out how shes doing they dont keep in contact. but my mom knows that she is doing good, has a family of her own and her own daughter. my father grew up in a childrens home. and he grew up and made it. my sister got pregnant her senior year of high school and had planned on giving her daughter up for adoption. but my mom made her hold the baby in the hospital room before she made that decion. she new how tough it was giving away her first born and didnt want to see my sister go thru the same thing. and now her daughter amanda is 18 and just enrolled in bowling green university and i know shes glad as hell she didnt give her up.so to me the statistics dont matter. to me its not as cut and dry as saying 75% will end up being rotten apples so its not worth saving the 25% who will grow up nice.
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The problem is that people.... are people. People in general today don't take responsibilities for their own actions. They find it easier to blame someone or something else, and do so. Look at all the people who've sued or tried to sue for stupid bullcrap.
"oh waaa I spilled coffee on my self... I'm going to sue! Even though my dumbarse knew coffee was supposed to be hot, and if it wasn't hot I'd biotch about it"
"waaa... I'm suing McDonald's because I got fat"
"waaa... I'm suing the makers of GTA because my kid, who was underaged according to the game ratings to begin with, did stuff that was in the game"
I'm glad there are people out there who DO take responsibility for things... unplanned pregnancies, whatever. That's awesome. The problem is that most people DO NOT.
Don't get me wrong, for the most part I don't agree with abortion except in certain circumstances (rape, severe complications, etc). There are thousands of children who need loving homes. The ones that usually end up with the state as a parent are "too old" to adopt, because people who adopt usually want babies. There needs to be something in place to help these children, and more people willing to take in "older" children and give them a chance to be loved and be part of a loving caring family.
Along with that, is the point that by outlawing abortion you are taking away one's civil rights... the right to choose. That's not saying these children don't have the right to exist, but until there's something in place to give these children a fair chance in life...
Face it... children need a loving stable home. They deserve to be loved and cared for. They deserve to have a family who loves and cares for them and will help teach them morals and values in life. How would you honestly feel if you spent your entire life growing up feeling like you were never loved for and cared about? Feeling like you didn't belong? I'd rather not be here than grow up feeling that way... like I was just a piece of crap. They need love and nurturing and to learn how to develop coping skills that are needed in their adult life. Until there's more people who can give that... all they'd be doing by totally outlawing abortion is:
1. Taking away a woman's right to choose what she does with her body
2. Placing thousands more children in the hands of the State.
face it.. the state is not a good parent. The state cannot provide the basic things a child needs to develop into a productive member of society. The state cannot provide loving, caring, nurturing, teach them how to develop coping skills... make htem feel loved and wanted... like they belong.
"Face it... children need a loving stable home. They deserve to be loved and cared for. They deserve to have a family who loves and cares for them and will help teach them morals and values in life. How would you honestly feel if you spent your entire life growing up feeling like you were never loved for and cared about? Feeling like you didn't belong? I'd rather not be here than grow up feeling that way... like I was just a piece of crap. They need love and nurturing and to learn how to develop coping skills that are needed in their adult life. Until there's more people who can give that... all they'd be doing by totally outlawing abortion is:
1. Taking away a woman's right to choose what she does with her body
2. Placing thousands more children in the hands of the State."
my father grew up in a childrens home and was there till he turned 18 and he grew up, made something of himself got married and had me. so i would say give me the childrens home becauase ive seen that you can come out fine. to me, saying because you would rather die doesnt mean everyone wants to die. you are able to make the choice to say what you would like in that situation. a child isnt.
1. your not taking away anyones right. you have the free choice to have sex or not have sex. your not having that right taken away at all.
2. give me the state over death.
"The problem is that people.... are people. People in general today don't take responsibilities for their own actions. They find it easier to blame someone or something else, and do so. Look at all the people who've sued or tried to sue for stupid bullcrap. "
thats not the peoples fault. i consider that more the courts fault. if in that mcdonalds case the judge would have said lady your an idiot. case dismissed theres a huge chance that all this friovoulsy crap wouldnt have gotten out of hand. but since the judge decided that stupid people should have money. everybody and their brother now looks for that golden oppurtunity to turn their stupidity into cash.
i agree there needs to be more done with the kids that are in the system. a revamping and in most cases more money. but that doesnt mean i think its okay to just abort kids because they dont have a fair chance? whats fair in life. i know people that are rotten evil people who are rich and get everything they want and blow it all away and i know people that have had it very very hard. that struggle everyday. is that fair to them? there is no fair in life and nor should we expect things to be fair. you take what you are given and make the best out of it.
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sndsgood wrote:
my father grew up in a childrens home and was there till he turned 18 and he grew up, made something of himself got married and had me. so i would say give me the childrens home becauase ive seen that you can come out fine. to me, saying because you would rather die doesnt mean everyone wants to die. you are able to make the choice to say what you would like in that situation. a child isnt.
Your father is in the small majority for people in his situation. My wife also grew up in foster care and she recognizes she's in the minority. Ask your dad how many other foster kids he knows are successful as compared to those that weren't.
See, we don't disagree on a whole lot. We both don't like abortion, we both don't like the state's care of children. But where we disagree is priorities. I say we spend our energies taking care of the children ALREADY HERE, you say let's put an end to something that'll add to it before we're ready for them. That just does not make sense to me.
You don't get your wife pregnant before you have a bedroom for the baby.
---
AGuSTiN wrote:sndsgood wrote:
my father grew up in a childrens home and was there till he turned 18 and he grew up, made something of himself got married and had me. so i would say give me the childrens home becauase ive seen that you can come out fine. to me, saying because you would rather die doesnt mean everyone wants to die. you are able to make the choice to say what you would like in that situation. a child isnt.
Your father is in the small majority for people in his situation. My wife also grew up in foster care and she recognizes she's in the minority. Ask your dad how many other foster kids he knows are successful as compared to those that weren't.
See, we don't disagree on a whole lot. We both don't like abortion, we both don't like the state's care of children. But where we disagree is priorities. I say we spend our energies taking care of the children ALREADY HERE, you say let's put an end to something that'll add to it before we're ready for them. That just does not make sense to me.
You don't get your wife pregnant before you have a bedroom for the baby.
why punish a few because of what others are doing.like car insurance ive never been in an accident, i dont feel i should pay a large insurance fee because there are a bunch of idiots out there.
no system will ever be perfect, if we are waiting for the perfect solution we might as well just quit now. there is nothing to be done that can make every person happy. yes my dad was the minority as was your wife. if abortion would have been the choice i wouldnt even be here discussing this with you.
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Quote:
1. your not taking away anyones right. you have the free choice to have sex or not have sex. your not having that right taken away at all.
So, if you're raped it was your choice to have sex? Should a woman be forced to carry a child if she was raped? I'd sure as hell hope you'd say no... because if that was the case, I most likely wouldn't be sitting here today. IF I'd have gotten pregnant when I was raped (at knifepoint mind you), I honestly don't think I'd be here. The only way I got through the first 7 or so months was to try to FORGET about what happened. Had I gotten pregnant, and had to be reminded of what happened every time the baby moved... I don't think I'd be here. Yes there are FEW women who can have the children to term, and even fewer who raise the child. But would you want to put that child at risk possibly with the mother, and every timme she looked into the face of the child she seen the face of her attacker? Do you realize what could happen to the kid??
Quote:
thats not the peoples fault. i consider that more the courts fault. if in that mcdonalds case the judge would have said lady your an idiot. case dismissed theres a huge chance that all this friovoulsy crap wouldnt have gotten out of hand. but since the judge decided that stupid people should have money. everybody and their brother now looks for that golden oppurtunity to turn their stupidity into cash.
And who are the courts run by? Machines? If people took responsibility for their own mistakes, there'd be MUCH less problems than there are now.
Quote:
no system will ever be perfect, if we are waiting for the perfect solution we might as well just quit now. there is nothing to be done that can make every person happy. yes my dad was the minority as was your wife. if abortion would have been the choice i wouldnt even be here discussing this with you.
Nothing in life is perfect period. There doesn't need to be THE perfect solution, but more things in place to limit the mess that's around now. There's plenty of things that could be done to make the situation MUCH better than it is... but no one is doing anything about it.
There needs to be a BETTER system in place. And besides... either way you look at it, it's taking away rights. You have a penis, you don't have to carry children for 9+months on end. Your body wouldn't be violated by being forced to carry through with a pregnancy that:
1. Reminded you constantly about a violent attack
2. Where you knew you could not abort it, but knew that if you bore that child you would die
etc. Trust me, I do understand your point of view and opinion. Either way, that is all it is... a point of view or opinion. Let's say you have brown hair. Let's say, some dude thinks that all men with brown hair should be forced to be analy raped by bubba daily and at one point has to have his family jewels stuck into a meat grinder. How would you feel about that? Someone forcing you to do something that you are against because it affects you personally?
Yeah, there shouldl be something done about those who use abortion as a form of birth control, that is just plain rediculous. There should be some sort of regulation as far as that goes. But you can't take that right away to choose. Just because you're "offended" by something or "don't think it's right", doesn't mean that everyone has to follow your own perspective and point of view. Don't like it? Don't do it.
If it's a religious objection... what is it to you? If God truly is disgusted by abortion, you're not going to be the one paying for it when you go to the pearly gates. For all we know, it happens for a reason. Maybe it wasn't that child's time to come into this world yet.
Point is, none of us know, and none of us will while we're here. Maybe it's part of the big picture... maybe we are overpopulating the world and destroying it, and abortion and gay marriage is His way of keeping it in check until the end of the world. Far fetched? Yep. But times change... how are we to know what is REALLY going on?
i consider rape to be one of the cases where i would agree with abortion do to the fact that the emotional and phscological damage that is possible with the rape vicitm.
"There needs to be a BETTER system in place. And besides... either way you look at it, it's taking away rights. You have a penis, you don't have to carry children for 9+months on end. Your body wouldn't be violated by being forced to carry through with a pregnancy that:"
your right i dont have to carry that child around. but on that same token i also have no say whatsoever in saving my unborn child. if the person i got pregnant did not want the baby i would have absolutely no right in seeing my own child born and would have no oppurtunity to raise him on my own without her. but on the other hand if i didnt want the child but she does. im relegated to paying for the child for 18 years, longer if the kid went to college. to me that is taking away my rights to be a father.
you have the choice to have sex. i would be taking no rights away. if you are mature enough to have sex you should be mature enough to deal with the responsibiliteis
my reasons are my own, not some religious mumbo jumbo
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sndsgood> Hey, I agree that if the father wants to keep the child and the mother doesn't and wants to abort... there should be some compromise available to let the father have the right to teh child. I'd say, if the woman has to carry the child to term to give it up to the father, the father needs to make certain all medical expenses and basic needs for the woman are met so the child can be born healthy and stuff. Nothing unreasonable, but in that case the father should have the right to the child.
And yes... if you're "mature" enough to have sex, you SHOULD be "mature" enough to deal with the possible outcomes. Problem is, people in general are stupid, immature, and can't accept responsibility for their own actions and mistakes. There should be some sort of check system, but I don't think the right should be taken away.
Like I said, for the most part I don't agree with abortion either. And those who use it as a form of "birth control" totally disgust me. In a sense, I think it should only be granted in extreme circumstances, and a check system in place. Like....
1. Woman is raped... abortion = ok
2. Woman or child is going to die... abortion = ok
3. Child is going to be SEVERELY handicapped, and I do mean SEVERELY... it should be an option and up to the parent(s). i.e. if the child is basically going to be a vegetable, and the parents won't be able to provide adequate medical care and round the clock care due to financial issues... it should be an option to consider.
4. Woman is a crackwhore/heroin addict/has a transmittable terminal disease... abortion = viable option
Things like that is what I'm talking about. If it's just an "oops" thing, condom broke, or you were stupid enough to trust the "pull out" or "rhythm" method... Congrats new mommy/daddy!!!
The child shouldn't have to suffer because their mother/father has aids, or is a crack/heroin addict, or whatever. In circumstances like that, it would be better to abort the child early on. The last thing that child deserves is a crackwhore/herion addict mother, who falls in love with the baby the first time she feels him move, but can't get off the drugs, then after the child is born neglect the child because they can't kick the habit. It's not fair to the child to be born with AIDS knowing that it's going to die and not have a fair shot at a long normal healthy life.
sndsgood wrote:
your right i dont have to carry that child around. but on that same token i also have no say whatsoever in saving my unborn child. if the person i got pregnant did not want the baby i would have absolutely no right in seeing my own child born and would have no oppurtunity to raise him on my own without her. but on the other hand if i didnt want the child but she does. im relegated to paying for the child for 18 years, longer if the kid went to college. to me that is taking away my rights to be a father.
you have the choice to have sex. i would be taking no rights away. if you are mature enough to have sex you should be mature enough to deal with the responsibiliteis
i agree with this.
while yes, the woman does all the work of carrying the baby.
however, if a man and a woman have sex and get pregnant and the man wants the baby bu the woman doesnt, the man, currently has absolutely no say in wether that child is born or not.
so even tho the woman does the tremendous work of carrying the baby, half of that baby IS the fathers and would not exist without him. so i feel when a man and a woman make a baby the man should have an opportunity to have soem sort of say.
but that subject is SUCh a slippery slope its unbelievable. because soemone can easily interperet what im saying as saying a man should have say over a woman. which i dont agree with. but i dont feel the woman should have %100 say of the life of a baby that is %50 the fathers.
but besides all that i dont feel abortion should EVER be outlawed. i think that would be stupid. there are too many situations in which i feel abortion is a excellent option for the woman. i know if i was raped i would NEVER EVER EVER want to carry that baby and raise it and i wouldnt care what anyone says
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Nathaniel O'Flaherty wrote:sndsgood wrote:
your right i dont have to carry that child around. but on that same token i also have no say whatsoever in saving my unborn child. if the person i got pregnant did not want the baby i would have absolutely no right in seeing my own child born and would have no oppurtunity to raise him on my own without her. but on the other hand if i didnt want the child but she does. im relegated to paying for the child for 18 years, longer if the kid went to college. to me that is taking away my rights to be a father.
you have the choice to have sex. i would be taking no rights away. if you are mature enough to have sex you should be mature enough to deal with the responsibiliteis
i know if i was raped i would NEVER EVER EVER want to carry that baby and raise it and i wouldnt care what anyone says
I dont know about that point. As a guy, personally I wouldnt mind getting raped, as long as its a decent looking woman raping me. Plus I dont know to many guys that can become pregnant.
1) In this ithink EVERY case must be examined individually.
2) I think if the abortion is used as a contraception, then both the Father and Mother should be permanently sterilized.
Still, since every issue not only has many shades of grey but many color hues to go with it, we can't really call it down the middle.
And for those of you beating the "Sanctity of life" dead horse into a pulp, remember this, "Every sperm is sacred, so be sure to swallow them all."
Goodbye Callisto & Skaši, Hello Ishara:
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The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
Rollinredcavi wrote:I dont know about that point. As a guy, personally I wouldnt mind getting raped, as long as its a decent looking woman raping me. Plus I dont know to many guys that can become pregnant.
For the 1st comment - Well you can't rape the willing, so if she's attractive to you then how can you call it rape? _ unless you know she has 13 STDs etc - I guess it might be rape then - and you might mind then.
For the 2nd comment - Apparantly you don't know California's Governor.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Monday, November 13, 2006 10:20 AM
I've never heard of this "part throttle" before. Does it just bolt on?
Conservative / Libertarian / Repulican / Neo CON / Right Wing Nut Job here. lol
DEMOCRAT AND PROUD OF YET. GOD BLESS AMERICA
I prefer "Vegisexual, nazi, liberal."
For those that don't get it, i pity you harder than Mr.T has ever pitied a foo.
Goodbye Callisto & Skaši, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
