AGuSTiN wrote:If was a public spectacle, what does that matter, either?


Should I shy away from the National Anthem because it's a spectacle?

Should I look down upon political demostrators over their spectacles?

What's wrong with a religious spectacle? Why is it expected that people of faith need to be quiet and to themselves?

Augustin...

Burning your things... IS INSANE! Doesn't anyone see that?????????? It's like when women burn their old love letters from exes before they get married. Why are they burning them? Just shred them and toss them in the garbage. Even when it's a private thing, it's WEIRD. What kind of medieval superstisious pagan ritualistic nonsense is this? What year is this? What country is this? The fact that a bunch of people got together to watch each other burn their crap is ODD. degenerated is right on the money when he said that it was the spectacle that got to me, but even when it's just a private thing between friends, it is bizarre for a group of 5 or 6 or 12 people to just hang out and watch each other BURN their expensive things. There's no two ways about it.

Besides, it's a symbolic act and I loathe that. You know why? Because they're usually used as a pretense of doing something without doing something. It's like the people who feel patriotic while singing the National Anthem at a football game then drive by the town's army barracks without sparing a thought for the lonely wives and widows of soldiers. They don't stop to offer a few bucks for grocery money, or free car repair at their shop, or babysitting services for the woman's kids. They don't do a single thing to TRULY show patriotism but they know all the songs and chants by heart and by golly they must have 20 flags in their yard. It's like those guys who go to AA every Sunday like clockwork for entire decades... and don't stop drinking. "BUT I GO *hic* TO AA!!!" is their excuse. They don't DO anything, but all the symbolic gestures have been taken care of.

Just the fact that they had to burn these things instead of just getting rid of them SCREAMS of self-pretentious and meaningless symbolism. It's like wearing a chastity belt because you can't stop masturbating. Hey hombre... it's YOUR hand.

Symbolism is nothing. The will to follow through with your ideas is everything. Willpower will keep a man who should be dead still alive for a few more minutes so he can say goodbye. Willpower will make a mother lift a car off her child. Willpower will make the worst drug addict in the world never touch the stuff again. But willpower all depends on the person's resolve. It's not what he wants that counts but what he does. Whole world of difference.

Know what? Between you and me? I did somewhat bite my tongue after I posted this thread because I realized that I have a deep love for Buddhism and that there is more than a little symbolism in that particular religion, especially the casting out of material things in order to focus on a spiritual life. However, I would still poke fun. The difference is that the buddhist monks would either not really care or laugh with me. Those guys are in a whole other zone. They're not trying to be a part of society and be religious at the same time. They've stepped out. They don't need society to accomodate them. They just are who they are. I admire that.

Why are religious people expected to be quiet? Because faith is a secret between you and God. It's a conspiratorial whisper late at night that you both share. And the louder you are, the less you hear his voice. Is that what you want?

As for Political Demonstrations. I feel don't feel that they're symbolic most of the time, usually they have a very active and definite point to them. Hundreds of thousands of people amassing with the very concrete goal to scare the hell out of people in office. The message is clear: "What if we marched right into your offices?" That's why I think it's bogus to hold these polite designated area protests. One of the reasons that the government stopped listening to the people is that they've stopped being afraid.

Totally off subject.

You know, right here, right now... we've all captured it in a bottle for a fleeting moment. That big huge religious divide in America. This is it right here, between us. A handful of messages on the board show it. Some of you just do not (and will never probably) understand why I could see this as being odd, and others do. And that right there is what the divide is.

Quote:

right its symbolizes things that THEY feel contradict beliefs or ways of lifes that they believe in.

it doesnt get the "closer" to god. what it does is make them feel like they are getting rid of bad things in their life. havent you ever had a ton of paper work from old stuff and were keepign it for months. and then finally you decide just to throw it all away? you could have kept them, but getting rid fo them gave you a feelign of accomplishment and starting anew

if they were just good old boys hanging round burning stuff for no damn reason I'd say, "fine, do what you want". If a normal person wants to get rid of something or clean house, just throw it in the dumpster or sell it on EBay or something, like a NORMAL person. The fact that they bring God into something as strange as burning belongings makes no sense. God is not judging them for owning movies and music! What does a feeling of accomplishment for throwing a DVD out have to do with God? The first sentence says something contradicts their beliefs... what religion besides a ultra-conservative cult condones burning your belongings?

Quote:

I guess you don't know what symbolism is?

And the wackos at some megachurches have nothing to do with this. Don't muddy their dirty ways into this topic, please

drop the sarcasm... I just mentioned that because they are both wackos. There are always some attention-whore religious zealots that have to stir the pot to get attention. They are fundamentalist Muslims without the bombs.

If you think that a bunch of inanimate objects are interfering with your life, you don't need less objects, you need more reality.

Seriously, if you want to be THAT pious, then what you have means nothing ultimately, so who cares if you have it or not? The burning is a symbol, of course, but, it's an empty one. You can sell, give away, donate to a library.. whatever. Burning books, CD's DVD's... information on the whole.. they did it in a lot of places for the wrong reasons, the article itself isn't the problem. What significance you assign to it is. Why wasn't there a greenpeace nutter out there while the guy with the CD's was loading up? There's scads of extra poly carbonate resin in the atmosphere because of this.




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

Quote:

If was a public spectacle, what does that matter, either?

Because there is a point where you do something because it matters to you, and where you do something because you think it should matter to others and want everybody to know what you're doing.

That's the difference. Singing the National Anthem is usually not a spectacle in the sense that it's unusual. You should be able to recognize that difference. Political demonstrators...well, I guess it depends on what they're demonstrating against.

Quote:

The fire, which was contained in a wide metal bin, was on the outskirts of Minot on church-owned property. As more members of the church gathered around the fire, they started clapping and singing along to an acoustic guitar.

Chuck Holtzhower, one of the 20 or so participants of the burning, had a large stack of CDs and DVDs he was throwing into the fire.

I remember reading that, just not remembering it, if that makes any sense .

Anyway, I'm not saying it's a big deal. I really don't care either way. What they wish to do is their own business. I think, however, that the point is Jeremy thinks they're crazy for doing it. In a way, so do I.

Would I burn my stuff because I thought it was leading me down the wrong path? Probably not. But I don't need that kind of "symbolistic ritual" for closure. In fact, I save EVERYTHING. But then, somebody probably thinks that I'm strange for doing that, too.

I have no issue with the religious aspect. My problem is when it's done more out of need for attention than it is for what they say it's for.

honestly i could care freakin less.


if burning some objects, they feel are not in alignment with what they believe they should own, makes them feel better and closer to their religious ideals than go for it.

burning some of their own possessions make no difference to anybody.

of course they could, sell, throw away, shred whatever. but for whatever reason that doesnt have enough physcological meaning to them. the burning will make them feel cleansed of what they feel they were doing wrong as well as actually getting rid of the object.



once they start calling out for all people to burn their evil dvds and cds as a whole then ill have a problem. until then, they can have fun feeling like burning of their physical objects is bettering themselves.




Creative Draft Art Media Forums

Quote:

once they start calling out for all people to burn their evil dvds and cds as a whole then ill have a problem.

Agreed.

I think you guys have problems with it because you WANT to have problems with it.

If this reporter stumbled into this private burning, then they did nothing to attract attention. Symbolism is symbolism. From the smoker who quits smoking mid pack instead of finishing it, to the alcoholic who destroys every bottle of booze.. who cares? Sometimes you just have to toss things out with authority and just say "To hell with that. THIS IS IT". It's called momentum.

Second, if they called the reporter out, so what? Let people see what they did. Who knows? Maybe someone who's addicted to MMF porn will say, "man, I can't even enjoy sex with my wife anymore. I should do the same". Or maybe it'll be a criminal released from jail who will see a support group to help him stay straight. Maybe it'll be a kid who's fallen in with the wrong crowd who sees that people CAN (or least try) to swing 180 from their ways.

I saw NO ONE claim they were instantly better people in this article. You guys just need to relax. For you to scoff at people who want to publicly say "I want to be a better person" is worse than anything they have done because YOU CANNOT PROVE anything they did supports your arguments against it. You just assume they do. Now THAT'S self-pretentious.

Quote:

Burning your things... IS INSANE! Doesn't anyone see that?????????? It's like when women burn their old love letters from exes before they get married. Why are they burning them? Just shred them and toss them in the garbage. Even when it's a private thing, it's WEIRD. What kind of medieval superstisious pagan ritualistic nonsense is this? What year is this? What country is this? The fact that a bunch of people got together to watch each other burn their crap is ODD. degenerated is right on the money when he said that it was the spectacle that got to me, but even when it's just a private thing between friends, it is bizarre for a group of 5 or 6 or 12 people to just hang out and watch each other BURN their expensive things. There's no two ways about it.

Get off your high horse. This is the most illogical paragraph I've ever read. You have earned no right with anyone to look down at people you know through only an article. You've accused them them of being self-pretenious, pagan-like weirdos. Via information gleaned from an article...that you're not sure is accurate...from an event you did not see...done by people you do not know.

Why don't you call that church and report back to us that they are exactly who YOU say that are? If you had spent half the effort finding out some facts and filling in the holes, you might not find them to be so bad. Or you might.

But you don't really know. You just think you do.




---

Quote:

I think you guys have problems with it because you WANT to have problems with it.

Not at all. In fact, I really detest people who argue for the sake of arguing.

This isn't newsworthy. At all. So I really don't care, but I do wonder why it was in the news in the first place. I'm guessing it's because burning your belongings in a group setting isn't a normal occurance, but what do I know.

The only issue I would have, is if these people did what they did for attention so that they would be perceived as better people. If they didn't, and it was done for personal reasons which happened to get into the newspaper--then great.

Unlike Jeremy, I don't think doing it as a support mechanism is bad (perhaps strange, but I'm not judging because it's not my cup of tea), but I do think having to have other people know about it is a problem, because at that point you're just going, "Na na, I'm better than you," because I'm not doing the same thing.

There a lot of holier than thou attitudes out there, and I really can't stand that.

Quote:

I saw NO ONE claim they were instantly better people in this article. You guys just need to relax. For you to scoff at people who want to publicly say "I want to be a better person" is worse than anything they have done because YOU CANNOT PROVE anything they did supports your arguments against it. You just assume they do. Now THAT'S self-pretentious.

You're not going to find many people claim they're better than you when they do something. Generally, they'll imply it. There's nothing wrong with saying, "I want to be a better person." There is something wrong with saying (in not so many words), "I am a better person."

Are these people guilty of it, I have no idea, because as you said, there's really no way to know from an internet article.

In fact, I'm not really saying anything about those people. I'm talking more in general, using this article as an example. For this group, I have no idea what their intentions really were.

how many people saw this on the news? or is it just some small town that the news had nothing else better todo that day then go watch people feel better about themselves?? I could see it if it were on headline news or some national watched channels that y'all are arguing about then i guess thats okay. If Jeremy didn't post it who would have actually have known about it to really cause a problem if any?