Of course albinos in all species seem to have many health issues and do not live as long as their normal counterparts. Disadvantage.

We seem to find fossilized species that fit the chain. Where are the millions that didn't make it? Why do we find animals and plants that follow along and not the genetic failures? If it is random, the failures sould be prolific.

PAX

Not all genetic faliures are evident based upon skeletal remains. For all we know, Every T-rex skeleton we see, might have looked VASTLY different. Herll, one could have had scales and the other feathers, but a lot of fossil eveidence wouldn't show that.

To illustrate this, take NJHK, and myself. We both die, and are buried directly into the ground with no embalming or anything like. We become fossilized.

How would the scientists of the future EVER be able to tell one of us was black and one was white if, by the time we're unearthed, there was no record of a human specie living for the past 65 million years?


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

Yes, there are skeletal clues, but that is beside the point. Sure, we may not see all or even many of the failures, but we should see more failures than successes if the process is random.. For every one person that wins the lottery there are many thousands that did not. Therefore it is much easier to find a losing lottery ticket than a winning one.. Same principle.

PAX

Hahahaha wrote:Yes, there are skeletal clues, but that is beside the point. Sure, we may not see all or even many of the failures, but we should see more failures than successes if the process is random.. For every one person that wins the lottery there are many thousands that did not. Therefore it is much easier to find a losing lottery ticket than a winning one.. Same principle.

PAX

genetic mutation and adaptation is not neccesarily random. that seems to be the mistake ur making.

also, just because there was a mutation does not mean it made that animal die. a human could go through numerous mutations in many different areas but still be able to reproduce and live full lives.




:::Creative Draft Image Manipulation Forum:::

From the frame of reference of a quasi-intelligent being (keeping in mind i don't consider humans intelligent), that would have never even SEEN a human before, nor would have any records of their existance other than fossilized remains, Hahaha, there are very few skeletal clues that would survive fossilizatiion, and even those may not be clearly a whole other "breed" (or race, if you want to separate us from animals).

And lastly--the dinosaurs were on the earth for over 100,000 years--we have nowhere NEAR all the fossils on all of them that died. I think the answer is that we may be looking at a small sample of *both* the random mutations, and the "chain" as you call it--but we have so little of a clue that we can't tell one from the other.


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

BINGO.. We don't have enough evidence to conclude anything. That is exactly right.

That means that intelligent design is just as valid as radom mutation and natural selection. Even Darwin didn't believe Darwinism in the end.

PAX

wrong.

there is %100 evidence evolution happens, that mutation happens, adaptation happens. in ALL life.


and we DO have enough evidence to allow a very informed assumption based on that evidence that so closely matches us up with primates that we EVOLVED from them on a different path.

what was that percentage again that said what percentage DNA in humans vs primates matched exactly?

...

and if u want to argue ID then it should be from the stand point of ID created the possibility of mutation and adaptation and allowed us and every other life in the universe to survive and evolve through time.

instead of ID vs mutation





:::Creative Draft Image Manipulation Forum:::

Again, the argument is NOT against evolution. There is no denial of evolution, only the mechanisms that it employs. There has not been an argument (in dogma, in fact anywhere outside of North America) denying evolution since about 230AD. When will people over here clue in?

Yes, evolution happens, and everyone except a very small bunch of isolated "christians" in North America.

My argument is the the mutations and adaptations are not random. That's the argument, random or not.. Do you see?

PAX

but if they are not "random" why does that mean its by GOD?

things do not have "order" because god says so. and that being so, genetic mutation/adaptation can be non-random and still not be because of "god"

it doesnt make sense to me

random = no god
not random = god

mutations/adaptations can happen because of DIRECT stimulii. which means its not random.

Quote:

That means that intelligent design is just as valid as radom mutation and natural selection.

this clearly pits id VS the processes of evolution



do u believe that everything in the underiverse works the way it does because god has basically blue printed everything to act in a certain manner?






:::Creative Draft Image Manipulation Forum:::

I do, but I also recognize that it's not a good foundation for an argument. It can be a conclusion though.

If there is evidence of design, then yes, it does mean God did it. The problem is coming to the conclusion that there is design. I will not start by stating there is design, but rather see if it can be demonstrated.

My beliefs do not make an argument.

PAX

what do you feel is evidence of "design"?





:::Creative Draft Image Manipulation Forum:::

Actually, hahahah...can i offer an alternative explaination?

If there is evidence of design, then it does *not* mean that God--in the specific, did it. It just means *something* did it.


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

True true.. That's why we should be looking at the bigger picture. Is there design in the universe? The Earth just seems so obvious with its rediculously large moon (that could not have spun off while molten, nor could it have been capured) that perfectly covers the sun, and does such perfect regulation of ocean tides. Design infers intervention.. Keeper is right, unless it can be shown to exist through EVERYTHING then it's possible that some intelligence other than God did it.

PAX

Hahahaha wrote:True true.. That's why we should be looking at the bigger picture. Is there design in the universe? The Earth just seems so obvious with its rediculously large moon (that could not have spun off while molten, nor could it have been capured) that perfectly covers the sun, and does such perfect regulation of ocean tides. Design infers intervention.. Keeper is right, unless it can be shown to exist through EVERYTHING then it's possible that some intelligence other than God did it.

PAX

and where did u get your info that the moon could not have been a part of the original earth as it was forming or that it wasnt captured?

and what makes you think that the ocean tides are being regulated perfectly? to what standards are u comparing wether te tides are perfect or not. the tides correspond well with our way of life, but that in no way means they are perfect




:::Creative Draft Image Manipulation Forum:::

Hahahaha wrote:Again, the argument is NOT against evolution. There is no denial of evolution, only the mechanisms that it employs. There has not been an argument (in dogma, in fact anywhere outside of North America) denying evolution since about 230AD. When will people over here clue in?

Yes, evolution happens, and everyone except a very small bunch of isolated "christians" in North America.

My argument is the the mutations and adaptations are not random. That's the argument, random or not.. Do you see?

PAX

I just ran across this thread and I'm wondering...

If your explanation for the mechanism of evolution is that an entity is responsibile for "random" genetic mutation (which is necessary for natural selection and evolution to occur) then what do you believe of the concept of random? How do you define random? If you claim that there is always something responsible for a random change, then the concept of random itself is self-contradictory. Random cannot exist if it is controlled. Then, do you claim that there is no such thing as random, in any sense of the word?

Above.. You mis understand me. I'm saying it's NOT random. To me random would mean that you simply can not predict it, that any one of millions of possibilities could happen, and if random, did happen. I'm saying that the mutations seen appear to follow a distinct line, and are not at all random because they are predictable.

Nethaniel. The Moon is too big.. Far too big for the Earth. This info comes from astophysists who all agree that if the moon was just passing by, it is too big for Earth to have captured it, and iff it spun off the Earth while molten it would have enough energy to just keep going, again, too big for Eath's gravity to stop. On the other hand, I never said it could not be a part of the Earth. Many have suggested, and it seems plausible, that the moon formed as a result of a massive collition. A chunk of the Earth was popped out (by massive impact) and formed into the moon. That is possible, and seems likely. This would have to have occured after Earth cooled and formed a crust. The moon does seem to fit nicely into the Pacific "Ring of Fire" and may explain why all continents are moving toward that massive hole in the Earth that we call the Pacific Ocean.

It is also at exactly the right distance and size to creat a total eclipse of the Sun that allows the corona to be seen.. Very odd indeed when compaired to other planets in our system... No other planet has a moon like ours, in our system.

PAX

PS: True enough that tidal systems may not be perfect, but I do know that without them, life as we know it would not exist here on this planet. If the desired outcome is life as we know it, the moon plays a huge role in making it possible.

Hahahaha wrote:Above.. You mis understand me. I'm saying it's NOT random. To me random would mean that you simply can not predict it, that any one of millions of possibilities could happen, and if random, did happen. I'm saying that the mutations seen appear to follow a distinct line, and are not at all random because they are predictable.

Well, here is where your understanding of evolution and natural selection breaks down. Random mutation, allowing for natural selection and evolution, does not "follow a distinct line." Future genetic mutation cannot be predicted, or else we would all understand the future of our own evolutionary path - which of course, we do not. Genetic mutation IS random.

The path of evolution in past organisms is obvious in the sense that we can account for the observed changes from one generation to another. For example, a classic study of genetics takes place in Drosophila melanogaster (the fruit fly) because they are easily observable and have short lifespans (about 60 days). Mutation can be observed in Drosophila, but it cannot be predicted, unless of course you are artificially manipulating its genotype for research purposes.

Furthermore, how do you explain substances like ethidium bromide (a mutagen) that can randomly mutate genetic sequences? Do you believe this also follows a distinct path?

In this case, hindsight seems to be close to 20/20 - it is fairly obvious how organisms have evolved throughout time, but that does not necessarily mean they evolved for the sole purpose of existing in their present state. That's like saying the cow evolved so that humans could eat it, or the human evolved so that it could keep goldfish as pets.

If i'm not mistaken, hahahah, Charon is comparatively larger than our moon is (in regards to the masses of Pluto and Earth, respectively. I won't begin on explaining the how, because i freely adm,it my ignorance in the area, but we shall see when we finally get a probe out to Pluto.

Anyhow, a couple of flaws i see in your argument about the randomness is this:

We have an INCREDIBLY incomplete fossil record. In fact i would venture a bet that we are looking at only .000000000001% of all species that have ever lived. Thus, we cannot say whether or not randomness or linearness ever came into play in the past because if it did, looking at the fossil record, there is a huge amount of unknown variants of the species. We can't say for certain if it was random or not because the only records we have are, as far as we know, what *has* worked--and not what hasn't. Thus, in order to say if it is random or not, we'd have to look at the present and record this into the future--which would take so many lifetimes to get a decent answer, and moreover, with how many hands the results would come into contact with...call me a cynic, but i wouldn't trust the results.


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

If you like, we can open the debate to "Is Pluto really a planet?".

Many say no, some say yes, still others say that Pluto and Charon are a double planetoid system.

As for the rest.. There just isn't enough info to conclude either way. I keep my God leaning opinions.

PAX

and thats awesome.


and just to give u a heads up i just acquired an article from my philosphy professor yesterday that proves god doesnt exsist.

it is EXCELLENT

it is not REALLY meant to say god doesnt exsist but shows that through m\basic laws of reason and logic the only conclusion u can come to is that he doesnt.

its pretty sweet.

ill type it up and post it today or tomorrow




:::Creative Draft Image Manipulation Forum:::

Some say no, some say yes...true enough, BUT, for the argument with the moon to work, then the same argument must be made about Pluto/Charon.

And there's nothing wrong with God-leaning opinions...so don't get me wrong

Backing up though...the moon is not "perfect" because we do get annular eclipses, plus, the moon is spinning itself outward by a few inches per year.

A theory i heard awhile back was the the moon formed the same way the earth did, but within the orbit of the Earth--possibly by a passing object that was, at the time, small enough to be captured but large enough to have it's own large enough gravitational pull. While not in full tidal lock (since it orbits about once a month), it was in enough of a tidal lock to keep it's face in one direction towards the earth.

Improbable, yes, but not impossible. IMHO there's nothing that's truly impossible within the universe...not even the existance of God . Just many things that are Highly improbable.


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

yeah HAHAHA

nothing wrong with god opinions.

for i myself neither confirm nor deny the exsisting of such a force.




:::Creative Draft Image Manipulation Forum:::

If you like I can provide a very long and difficult be logical arguement that God does exist. Which also makes perfect sense when you read it.

It's a few pages, just say the word and I'll post it. That is both a promise and a warning


PAX

I think i already read it...didn't you post it in another thread?

My take, both logically and with empirical, and not hard evidence, you can both prove and disprove the existance of God.

So, I personally say chose the path that most fits your concept of reality--since most likely God Exists and Doesn't Exist.


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

Interestingly, if I had posted the entire thing (unlikely, I think I posted bits and pieces) part of the reasoning is "the possiblity of non-existance". It's a really cool angle that makes your head hurt.

PAX