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My religious views
Tuesday, April 12, 2005 7:25 AM on j-body.org
Now obviously this is going to offend, and I don't intend to defend my position on this after this post. I'm very rarely in this forum and on top of that you have the right to disagree, and a lot of people will.

First off, let me say, I have the utmost respect for those with religious faith. In no way am I saying or arguing that you should give up on any of that. Unfortunately at this point in my life I'm not one who has faith in a religion of any sorts.

Now that said, my point of discussion is the source of religion. Not particularly picking on any one religion, I believe they all have roots more in human psychology than they do based on physical history. The basis of the human psyche is to instill in one's self a sense of worth. Not a measurable wealth in posessions, but a general acceptance of peers. I don't think anybody would argue that everybody is wanting to be accepted by somebody or something. Even those rebellious groups of individuals who separate themselves by extreme behavior are seeking acceptance in one respect or another.

Now, psychologically and/or physically, a person will latch onto somebody who is stronger than they are. This goes back to the very basics of animal psychology where the same activity can be seen in any social animal society. Elephant herds have a very distinct leader, lions have distince alpha leaders, monkeys, cats, prairie dogs, the list goes on. Those weaker of the society are seeking to gain acceptance and strength through idolization (maybe I just made that word up, but you get it) of those who's qualities they see as being a goal for themselves.

Now going back to the beginning of time, when multiple species of the early humanoids started walking the earth. Whether or not you believe in evolution is another discussion, but everyone can't dispute solid evidence of early man. These groups also had alpha leaders who most likely put themselves into a leadership position by proving they were better than the others of the clan. This type of acention was the basis for human life for probably a half a million years, groups roaming through what was Eurasia having a very set ranking system. The groups had a type of cast system, those who would provide the most resources, either intellectual or physical, would be elevated in the society.

This type of activity was continued for so long that it was burned into the human essence. The weak aspired to become the strong through emulation of the best qualities of those in power.

Now, some time in there humans began to evolve into modern man. They stopped roaming and hunting and started farming and building cities. The cast system was more alive then than it ever was. Even back to the Egyption times there were leaders (pharoh's), and those who were nothing more than the bottom of the bucket (slaves). Now, to hold power over somebody you have to prove that you are better than they are, either through a show of power or through tactful politicking. There is no doubt in my mind that the first leaders of the world used politicking to get into power.

Now politicking was probably nothing like it is today. These people would probably have argued that they were sent by the earth, sun, moon, mountain, water, etc to be the keeper of the people under them. This is my guess as to where the thought of multiple gods came in. Such as Rah, Sun God. Who would argue with the sun that this person was destine to rule the people? Through clever politicking and later through bloodlines, this is most likely the source of the Egyption, Roman, and many other early empires.

So then, you get distention between those groups who worship different sets of gods. A good part if not most of the early wars were over religious pretenses. One group would say that they were commanded by the Sun god to rule this area, and the other group would say that they were given this area to rule by the god of the sea. Obviously the attacking group's leader would be seeking more power (a sense of self worth through position, goes back to my original point). This probably progressed through to a "my god is better than your god" style argument, for a down to basics look at it.

One group would probably have said "I have one god who rules everything". This is another source of power, I mean who would you vote for in a fight, 50 guys with 1/50th the power, or 1 guy with all the power? The birth of "god". That was probably one of MANY factors leading to the creation of a being who is all powerful and all knowing. Even the jewish people were slaves if I recall correctly. You don't want to latch yourself onto a stronger person who in your eyes is nothing more than a dictator who treats you worse than the mule next to you. So you create something that is better than he is, better than who commands him, and will strike him down for worshipping anybody else.

All faiths seem to have a similar basis that I have found. There are a couple out there who's source seems to be one's self and not the worshipping of something more powerful and unknown. Those faiths I believe to be the only true faiths at this point in my life. God was never about an all knowing, all powerful being who rewards those who worship him, and punishes those who don't. God was always about a weak person latching onto a stronger person for a sense of self worth.

You look at today's bible thumping hippies and they are on a high horse like you can't believe because they are "doing the work of god". Can I get a written work order for that? I always envied those with a religious following since I'm so analytical that I can't put so much faith into something I can't see, hear, touch, or find any physical evidence that they actually exist.

Thats the biggest problem that I have with some religious groups, especially up here where the devout christians don't just follow thier faith, but feel the need to push it on EVERYBODY else. Thats great that you have a faith like that, but please follow it in peace. If I'm going to find god, I will do it on my own.

So, summing it up I guess, I believe that god, gods, or religous dieties without a basis in reality (Muhammed was real), are creations of man who have believed in them with such conviction for so long, that the thought that they don't exist is blastphamist (sp).

Yeah, I'm bored at work



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Re: My religious views
Tuesday, April 12, 2005 9:20 AM on j-body.org
word.
Re: My religious views
Tuesday, April 12, 2005 12:14 PM on j-body.org
evolution is your religion. I can see by your religion you have a strong set of ideas/ beliefs that you seem well on your way to follow. I don't like religion either, thats why I follow Jesus Christ. Its not the devout Christians pushing anything on you, it's what God calls them to do. If you don't like us bible thumping hippings, it's because you don't know God. You probably just want to be different, well on earth Christians are alike in Christ. They are very different though as each persons name is written in the Book of life as he enters the gates. Peace and God Bless.


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Re: My religious views
Tuesday, April 12, 2005 1:09 PM on j-body.org
Evolution is not a religion, neither is Darwinism, the are beliefs about the source and progress of man (or other animals). I don't worship science or Darwin, or preach evolution to others so I don't believe either of them fits into a "religion" category.

I believe I do know God, or at least the belief of such. I'm not wanting to be different, there are many others who share my view.

Like I said, you're beliefs are one thing, this is just my OPINION on the source of God (in all cultures, not just christian) from an agnotist's (sp) point of view.





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Re: My religious views
Wednesday, April 13, 2005 3:44 AM on j-body.org
jbody4jc wrote:evolution is your religion. I can see by your religion you have a strong set of ideas/ beliefs that you seem well on your way to follow. I don't like religion either, thats why I follow Jesus Christ. Its not the devout Christians pushing anything on you, it's what God calls them to do. If you don't like us bible thumping hippings, it's because you don't know God. You probably just want to be different, well on earth Christians are alike in Christ. They are very different though as each persons name is written in the Book of life as he enters the gates. Peace and God Bless.


BIG TIME wrong there...at least on my end of things...

it's the bible thumpers who turned me OFF from christianity.




grrquack.
Re: My religious views
Sunday, April 17, 2005 8:09 AM on j-body.org
Evolutionism and Darwinism and Life-webs are theories.. there is no praying to Darwin, we do not seek salvation from Evolutionism, we do not have Life-Web conferences everytime the head of the Life-web Church dies...

Jb4JC: I think you need to acquaint yourself with the fact that no matter how you paint it, you're following a religion, and a sub-set that follows a certain interpretation of the bible.

Science isn't a religion, it's study and testing of theory.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.


Re: My religious views
Sunday, April 17, 2005 11:26 AM on j-body.org
Anything involving ritual is a religion. Scientific method could be considered ritual, so there ya go. Prayer is not a requirement, only ritual.

PAX
Re: My religious views
Sunday, April 17, 2005 12:27 PM on j-body.org
thus, my bro's religion is beer and cigarettes.



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Re: My religious views
Sunday, April 17, 2005 3:37 PM on j-body.org
Hahahaha: I suppose, but, if you think about it, you have to take steps to figure out if a hypothesis is true, and thus you need to follow a process, and that process changes for every hypothesis. If it's always changing, then it's probably not a ritual.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.


Re: My religious views
Monday, April 18, 2005 7:24 AM on j-body.org
Hahahaha wrote:Anything involving ritual is a religion.


So......

My morning @!#$ is a religion? I knew I was doing something holy every morning, no more church for me!

My drive to work, is that a religion?

Public schooling a religion (wow, you shoulda pitched that to the supreme court when they were deciding separation of church and state)

Mowing the lawn?

Surfing the JBO?

I could go on forever... Obviously your views are clouded by an extremists point of view, but the intelligent will forever battle the ignorant for both will never sway in thier opinions. Thus to argue with you about that very point would be a waste of good brain cells...





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Re: My religious views
Monday, April 18, 2005 10:32 AM on j-body.org
religion = the acts, codes, laws, conduct related to ones(or organizations) belief in God, god, gods, or the lack thereof of God, god, gods.

ie. native americans didn't worship, but did pray to gods. buddists don't worship but pray to buddah, pagens don't pray to a god but they worship nature.

atheism is a religion, secular humanism is a geligion. just because a religion doesn't have a God, or god doesn't mean it's not a religion. it has acts codes, laws and basic conducts that are directly beset from the belief there is no God. science(macro evolutionary) is a sub sect of atheism!


quit your whining and Run, what you brung
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Re: My religious views
Monday, April 18, 2005 11:02 AM on j-body.org
I have a belief system, but I'm not particularly religious. I see religion as being more of a set of rules a group of like-minded people use when they get together in church (generally speaking) as opposed to being the actual faith they follow. I think faith is very individual and personal and not necessarily like anyone else's idea of it. Religion is more of a collective group of rules that people of the same "faith" can agree on.

Me, I don't like going to church because the pews are uncomfortable, and the preacher doesn't know to shut up at 12:00. He just drones on and on and on. He's also taken to preaching politics from the pulpit, and I don't want to hear that. I would rather keep a separation of church and state.
Re: My religious views
Saturday, April 23, 2005 11:02 AM on j-body.org
i started reading that but I fell asleep


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Re: My religious views
Saturday, April 23, 2005 2:59 PM on j-body.org
Pretjah:

Where ya been?

Anyhow, Something of note: Macro Evolutionary science is NOT in fact, part of aethism, There are many scientists that are devout Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists and Hindus. It doesn't belong to any of them specifically, and it belongs to all of them.

Science is not a belief system, it's a learning system. Science in and of itself does not implicitly confirm or deny the existence of God, Gods, or demigogues.. it's a systemic was of working from within the known, to chart, prove, re-prove and disassemble the unknown until it either falls within the realm of the known or augments the known.

Basically, you start out with a belief, devise a way to deconstruct it, you test and record your findings, and then you repeat it (ideally the exact same way). From that, you can either prove your assumption right or wrong. There's nothing implicitly esoteric, nor incredible leaps of faith.. Science is pretty damned conservative.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.


Re: My religious views
Sunday, April 24, 2005 7:04 AM on j-body.org
Shifted wrote:
Hahahaha wrote:Anything involving ritual is a religion.


So......

My morning @!#$ is a religion? I knew I was doing something holy every morning, no more church for me!

My drive to work, is that a religion?

Public schooling a religion (wow, you shoulda pitched that to the supreme court when they were deciding separation of church and state)

Mowing the lawn?

Surfing the JBO?

I could go on forever... Obviously your views are clouded by an extremists point of view, but the intelligent will forever battle the ignorant for both will never sway in their opinions. Thus to argue with you about that very point would be a waste of good brain cells...


No, I was just stating fact. Anything that is repeated a very specific way is ritual, and anything involving ritual is religious. That does not mean it involves worship of any kind, or specific buildings etc (churches), all it means is that it has a set pattern that will be adhered to.

My views are not clouded in any way, regardless of how "extreme" you may think I am. In a way I am extreme I guess, in that I try to live in accordance with the teachings of Christ, but that is inherently anti-extreme. Christ preached forgiveness, love, compassion and understanding. He taught that we should not judge others , or at least not put expectations on others that exceed those we impose on ourselves. I am not perfect, and I don't expect anyone else to be perfect either. I did not come to God through a church and I expect that others have their own path as well. I am extreme in my willingness to accept people for what they are, and my willingness to forgive transgression. I am extreme in my belief that God operates according to the individuals needs and my reveal himself in different manners for different cultures.

Different fingers of the same hand.


"clouded by an extremists point of view" HA, now that is funny. Why don't you find someone to tell you all about how I ridiculed them and belittled their views, or how I was the first in line to burn some witches.. Get over yourself. Besides, strong debate builds brain matter, it does not destroy it.


PAX
Re: My religious views
Sunday, April 24, 2005 2:24 PM on j-body.org
^ That statement was not about you belittling people, burning witches, raping small animals, etc.... Its that you are not open to the mere thought that god is a creation of man, and not the other way around because you are so involved that you are blind to any other possibility. I never implied that you were quick to ridicule or cut anybody down.

I'd also like to see where you get the information that anything involving a ritual is a religion. Religion is ritualistic, rituals are not religions.





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Re: My religious views
Sunday, April 24, 2005 9:23 PM on j-body.org
Just for calrification:

<a href="http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=religion">Religion</a>

<a href="http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ritual">Ritual</a>

A Ritual has a connotation of religious significance, but it can be merely a set sequence of doing things.

Ritual != Religion.



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