Yay!!!! Another gas thread... - Page 4 - Politics and War Forum

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Re: Yay!!!! Another gas thread...
Friday, May 12, 2006 3:21 PM on j-body.org
Jackalope wrote:Hmm, I did not know that. BUT on the subject of fertilizers I think all chemical fertilizers should be outlawed because they do indeed harm the enviroment. if you lived in MD or anywhere near the Chesapeak bay then you would know what nitrogen based fertalizers have done to it. Most of the bay is now dead from the run off from fertalizers used by local farms.

So yeah I'm not a fan.


I lost the entire stock of fish from four ponds on the farm because of run-off. The PH levels were high enough it killed all the plants around the ponds too. And the farmer that actually used the land lost livestock that drank the water. And he was the one using all the fertilizers and pesticides.




Re: Yay!!!! Another gas thread...
Friday, May 12, 2006 3:21 PM on j-body.org
Nathaniel O'Flaherty wrote:
wikipedia wrote:
Petroleum (from Greek petra – rock and elaion – oil or Latin oleum – oil ) or crude oil, sometimes colloquially called black gold, is a thick, dark brown or greenish liquid. Petroleum exists in the upper strata of some areas of the Earth's crust. It consists of a complex mixture of various hydrocarbons, largely of the alkane series, but may vary much in appearance and composition. Petroleum is used mostly, by volume, for producing fuel oil and gasoline (petrol), both important "primary energy" sources (IEA Key World Energy Statistics). Petroleum is also the raw material for many chemical products, including solvents, fertilizers, pesticides, and plastics.


and finding food wouldnt be a problem, but GASP farmers would actually have to start growing organic! and omg it would be healthier for us too!


It would be a problem because organic farming (whiole more ideal) has a reduced output. Without any chemicals and no working heavy farm equipment the outputs would be dramatically reduced.

PAX
Re: Yay!!!! Another gas thread...
Friday, May 12, 2006 4:05 PM on j-body.org
wtf? are you talking about mang?

no heavy working farm equipment? why not?

biodiesel

and as far as reduced output

that is false and is info spread by farmers and companies invested in continued use of chemical fertalizers because it is :cheaper: to grow using chemicals.

but it has nothign to do with the crop yields.

http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/July05/organic.farm.vs.other.ssl.html
July 13, 2005
Organic farming produces same corn and soybean yields as conventional farms, but consumes less energy and no pesticides, study finds

check out the link.
-----

the only deal is that when organic farming you may see lower yields within the first 2-4 years of growing. but as the ground soil used in the farm continues to become more nutrient rich and higher quality through continued use of natural ferts (manure etc...) and the natural recycling process. once the soil reaches this point yields end up being the same sometimes better. and the soil is always getting BETTER instead of getting worse when using chemical ferts. not to mention the hazerdous runoff of the chem ferts.

organic farming can also use less water because as the soil gets richer and richer it gets more efficient at retaing water. along with the soil and water being better able to absorb co2 from the air. here is a quote on that from that cornell study:
Pimentel said, pointing out that soil carbon in the organic systems increased by 15 to 28 percent, the equivalent of taking about 3,500 pounds of carbon dioxide per hectare out of the air.

organic farming IS the way to go. not only does it have the same yields, but it is better for the environment, better for the people and better for the world.

it is not popular because it can be slightly more expensive to use natural ferts and maintanence then using chemicals.

---

jack- i just watched a special on the ches bay. i had no idea it had gotten that bad recently. last i heard the dead zone was still somewhat small. but DAMN has it grown.

trully disgusting.




The biggest hole, is the illusion of invulnerability.

:::Creative Draft Image Manipulation Forum:::
Re: Yay!!!! Another gas thread...
Friday, May 12, 2006 8:11 PM on j-body.org
IF farmers only tilled the soil once every 3 seasons, vs, 2x a season, you'll see marked improvement in soil nutrient content.




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.


Re: Yay!!!! Another gas thread...
Friday, May 12, 2006 8:42 PM on j-body.org
my gfs parents live on the farm and they are whiching to organic planting bc I asked my gf mom what is the real benefit of switching it to organic and she told me its better to eat and easier to grow and better crop when its done


Opening Soon Kustom J's

Re: Yay!!!! Another gas thread...
Wednesday, May 31, 2006 5:48 AM on j-body.org
Quote:

Canada pays for U.S. oil thirst
Huge mines linked to environmental damage
By Doug Struck

Updated: 5:33 a.m. ET May 31, 2006
FORT MCMURRAY, Alberta - Huge mines here turning tarry sand into cash for Canada and oil for the United States are taking an unexpectedly high environmental toll, sucking water from rivers and natural gas from wells and producing large amounts of gases linked to global warming.

The digging -- into an area the size of Maryland and Virginia combined -- has proliferated at gold-rush speed, spurred by high oil prices, new technology and an unquenched U.S. thirst for the fuel. The expansion has presented ecological problems that experts thought they would have decades to resolve.

"The river used to be blue. Now it's brown. Nobody can fish or drink from it. The air is bad. This has all happened so fast," said Elsie Fabian, 63, an elder in a native Indian community along the Athabasca River, a wide, meandering waterway once plied by fur traders. "It's terrible. We're surrounded by the mines."

From her home on the bluff of the river, she can see billowing steam rising from a vast strip mine 10 miles away. There, almost 200 feet below what was once a forest, giant machines cleave the earth into a cratered moonscape. Immense shovels plunge into the ground, wresting out massive chunks. Trucks the size of houses prowl the pit. They deliver the black soil to clanking conveyers and vats that steam the tar from the sand.

The miners have created a marvel of human industry that takes a spongy muck once considered worthless and converts it into oil for gasoline, diesel and jet fuel. But the price of that alchemy is high: Each barrel of oil requires two to five barrels of water, carves up four tons of earth, uses enough natural gas to heat a home for one to five days, and adds to the greenhouse gases slowly cooking the planet, according to the industry's own calculations.

"The environmental cost has been great," said Jim Boucher, chief of the Fort MacKay First Nations Council, which includes Cree and Dene Indians, 35 miles north of Fort McMurray. He grew up on land that is now a clawed-out mine pit. But he has led his people into the mines by creating native-owned companies providing catering, truck driving, surveying and other services. "There is no other economic option," he said. "Hunting, trapping, fishing is gone."

Operators of the mines, which have helped make Canada the largest supplier of oil to the United States, believe they can find technological solutions to the environmental problems.

"There is a whole lot of work being done," Charles Ruigrok, chief executive of Syncrude, one of the largest companies, said at his corporate headquarters in downtown Fort McMurray. "I do believe technology will fix it."

Call for moratorium
The oil companies point to steady reductions in the amount of water and natural gas used to produce each barrel of oil, for example. But those efficiency gains have been wiped out by the rise in the number of barrels produced. Increasingly, environmental organizations are calling for a moratorium on the growth of the mines.

"We shouldn't be issuing new permits. We are foreclosing our future," said Dan Woynillowicz, who headed an extensive study for the Pembina Institute, an Alberta-based nonprofit that conducts research on environmental issues. "In the 1990s, we acknowledged environmental challenges would occur. But we are 17 years ahead of schedule."

When the oil sands became recognized as economically viable in 2003, Canada suddenly emerged as holder of the world's second-largest oil reserves, behind Saudi Arabia. By 2015, according to industry forecasts, the oil sands will account for at least one-fourth of North America's oil production.

The United States already is counting on Canada to help wean it from oil from the Middle East. Other countries are eyeing the wealth; China has invested in two mining companies and a pipeline to move oil from Alberta to shipping ports on the Pacific.

As technology and ever-bigger machines reduced the cost of extracting oil from the sands, private companies rushed in, investing nearly $100 billion in mines and sprawling processing plants. They were expected to produce 1 million barrels a day by 2020. That goal was passed in 2004, and the companies are racing to double the output soon and triple it by 2015.

They dig out shallower seams and inject steam underground to liquefy and pump out the deeper sands. Heating the water and processing the crude bitumen -- a heavy, viscous oil -- produces carbon dioxide, a greenhouse gas that is linked to global warming. The oil sands mines have become the largest contributor to Canada's increase in greenhouse gas emissions, according to Pembina's research.

"If you grow production of the oil sands, you are going to grow greenhouse emissions," Ruigrok said.

The oil companies are mulling ways to capture and bury carbon dioxide. Environmentalists want the companies to offset their greenhouse emissions by paying for conservation or alternative energy programs; Shell Canada has agreed to fund such programs to compensate for part of its carbon emissions. But oil company executives say that if their production is curbed, the world will buy the oil from worse polluters.

"If we chose not to develop the resource, there would still be oil produced elsewhere in the world," Gordon Lambert, a senior vice president of Suncor Energy, said in an interview from Calgary.

Critics also question the wisdom of using natural gas to heat and upgrade the oil sands. "We are taking a cleaner energy source and turning it into something that produces a lot of emissions when you produce it and when you burn it," said Dale Marshall, a climate change policy analyst with the David Suzuki Foundation in Ottawa.

Those processes are "putting unacceptable pressure on the environment," said Julia Langer, director of the global threats program of World Wildlife Fund-Canada in Toronto.

They point to threats to the Athabasca River, which flows like an azure ribbon from the Columbia Icefield in the Rocky Mountains. It tumbles through cool evergreen forests, wends through Alberta and finally joins the Peace River near Saskatchewan to form a teeming delta that is a major North American intersection for migrating birds.

Rare cancers
Mining operations have been permitted to take twice the amount of water from the river than is used annually by Calgary, a city of 1 million people, according to Pembina. The group's report predicts that the oil sands mines will increase withdrawals by 50 percent in the next six years.

Native communities on the river say that further reductions in the low winter flows will make the river unhealthy and that the northern pike, walleye and burbot may not survive. And they believe the waters have been contaminated by someone. Native residents of Fort Chipewyan, a village of 1,200 on the shores of Lake Athabasca, have experienced abnormally high rates of rare cancers. Federal and provincial medical investigators are trying to determine the cause.

Industry officials say they do not pollute the river, and instead reuse the water they take as often as 17 times. The leftover emerges as a black, foul liquid collected in tailing ponds. The ponds have grown; one dam is among the largest in the world. The mining companies must fire off propane cannons to scare away migrating birds from the toxic waters.

Industry officials say they are confident they will find a way to cap the ponds and solve the other problems. "I don't think there is a silver bullet that is the single answer," said Greg Stringham, vice president of the Calgary-based Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers. "But there are five or six technologies that are promising."

The mines are being carved out of Canada's vast Boreal forest, a continental swath of timber and wetlands that ecologists say helps reduce global warming.

From her 25-foot-high perch in the driver's cabin of a Caterpillar 797, the world's largest truck, Michelle Noer acknowledges that the landscape of Syncrude's Aurora pit mine "looks pretty rough right now.

"If we just dug it up, I probably wouldn't be able to do it," said Noer, 37, who came from lush wine country in British Columbia for the work and high pay. "But we do reclaim it. And we do need the oil."

One of the early Syncrude mining sites to be reclaimed now boasts 40-foot jack pine and spruce trees and sings with the call of songbirds that flit over hiking trails. "Beware of the Wildlife," a sign warns.

"It doesn't look bad. But it certainly isn't Boreal forest," said Pembina's Woynillowicz. "We have to wait and see if this ecosystem they have put back actually is going to be sustainable."

© 2006 The Washington Post Company








Re: Yay!!!! Another gas thread...
Thursday, June 01, 2006 9:17 PM on j-body.org
^^^could you sum that up for me?


-Brandon

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