Saint wrote:You just moved into military operations without securing your supply lines, the Forward Bases in Korea, Okinawa, Japan, Diego Garcia, and the Submarine Base at Pearl Harbor are not effected, they are still operational. The National Guard would be used to control the citizens. Now we'll say that the West Coast installations have been neutralized, Benning, Bragg, Knox and Lejeune are still Operational, and the Marine Corps is always on 24 hour alert. You also have to remember our European units in Germany that can be mobilized and brought over rather quickly. The biggest problem was that the Supply lines were unsecured and a Nuclear Submarine has an infinite range and submerged time, we could strangle them out of the fight.
You've just conceited two critical points...
1 - Using my plan, the Chinese could secure part of the west coast.
2 - We would have to recall troops stationed overseas to assist.
This, using the plan of a non-military strategist. If my plan can be seen as feasable, you have to concede that the Chinese military can do much better.
Saint wrote:And again, the operations you describe require too many moving parts, especially in the Government, someone will talk. Even our big offensives that we do our kept within a small circle until the last possible minute, then, and only then, do the troops find out. I can't tell you how many different times I've had no clue as to what was going on, and it's my job to know what's going on.
Funny, I don't remember hearing about the attacks on 9/11 before they happened. Where were the leaks then? Not every government is full of big mouths like ours.
There wouldn't be hundreds of people involved at first using my plan.
First wave of attacks:
4 hikers with bombs in their backpacks to take out the power lines.
6 - 8 truck drivers to plant bombs in their trucks and detonate when they're parked in the oil refineries.
2 cleaning crew staff to leave bombs in garbage cans on the wall street trading floor.
Second wave of attacks:
4 people - 1 to plant a safety deposit box bomb in each bank in 4 cities. This could even be 1 person who travels to all 4 cities, but let's opt for maximums.
Adds up to about 18 Chinese soldiers in our country. Not much chance for leaks.
As far as the troop deployment, no one on those ships needs to know where they are going except for the ships captains and navigators. Once they're under way, the troops can be informed of their mission.
And what would happen if the random bombings continued? Assume the original 18 sabateurs weren't caught. They could continue bombing other areas, such as roadside trash cans next to socially important structures, sewer bombs and let's not forget the numerous tunnels and bridges around the country.
I stand by my point, the US can be beaten on our own soil.
John Wilken
2002 Cavalier
2.2 Vin code 4
Auto
18 people to carry out the attacks, 50+ people to do the planning, and then you need all the people it would take to plan the actual assault, it's never as simple as it seems. Again 9/11 was a small-scale operation, nothing any government does, especially a Communist one, is a small-scale operation there is just too much red-tape that needs to be cut-through. You're not looking at everything that needs to be done to accomplish something like this. You can not compare what a tiny terrorist cell operating on it's own terms to a government beauracracy, they are two completely different animals. We can't get Human Intelligence into a terrorist cell, we have HumInt in the Chinese Government, big, big difference, and like I've said in my previous 2 posts someone will talk, there are too many moving parts, and it doesn't even have to be anything hush-hush that is leaked, there is a lot of information about my current deployment that is unclassified that if I just put it out for everyone to see would put thousands of lives in danger.
Yella02-I promise I will return to you in one piece and this will stay up until I am safely home
Saint wrote:18 people to carry out the attacks, 50+ people to do the planning,
50+ people to do the planning? I did all the planning in two posts, all by myself. The only planning I left out was which specific banks, refineries and power lines to hit.
Saint wrote:and then you need all the people it would take to plan the actual assault, it's never as simple as it seems. Again 9/11 was a small-scale operation, nothing any government does, especially a Communist one, is a small-scale operation there is just too much red-tape that needs to be cut-through.
I thought China had a dictator, one who rules at his whim. My bad, I didn't realize he had to check with his voters before planning an offensive. </sarcasm>
Saint wrote:there is a lot of information about my current deployment that is unclassified that if I just put it out for everyone to see would put thousands of lives in danger.
Not that I would expect you to put lives at risk disclosing classified info, but it sounds like now your hiding behind "that's classified". This is a drastic change from your earlier post that very clearly and boldly stated:
Saint wrote:I do this stuff for a living, I think I have an idea what I'm talking about... and I guarantee I can come up with a counter.
So far your only plan is to hope that information leaks out, or attempt to reclaim the area that the Chinese invade. That is not offering a counter, nor is it full of the bravado that this post has become rampant with regarding how the US is so bad ass.
Would you like to hear about the next strike from the Chinese, or are you willing to admit that there are circumstances in which the US could not win?
John Wilken
2002 Cavalier
2.2 Vin code 4
Auto
China is a Communist government, and no he doesn't check with his voters, but there is a lot of political red tape that is involved, nobody makes a decision without checking with him, and if he says to do something everything has to go back to him, after it's been talked over in comittee. You're again thinking about how a tiny terrorist cell operates and not a government. Yes you can come up with a bunch of planning, but we're talking about a government, not a terrorist cell. If a government were to sponsor this, it would not be one person on a whim deciding it was going to happen, there would be a lot more people involved.
I'm not hiding behind anything classified, I'm saying it doesn't take any classified information whatsoever for a trained inelligence agent to figure out what's going on.
I did counter your plan, in fact, giving ground for time is a very viable and successful military strategy, especially if you're caught off guard. Research Russia during World War II, or Russia during the Napoleonic Wars. In a country the size of the United States, with as treacherous terrain as the United States' western half, it would in fact be the best option, put up resistance yet cede ground to the enemy until you can be reinforced, and then counter attack.
Again since the supply lines are unsecured, they will not be able to sustain the pace of the invasion for very long, especially crossing the Rocky Mountains. The 3 Seawolf Class submarines, which are the fastest, quietest, deepest diving and most heavily armed submarines in the history of the world, will be teamed with the Carrier Battle Groups from Japan and Hawaii, and absolutely wreak havoc on China's shipping. China would have to pull Naval forces off of blockading the harbors and use them to protect the shipping lanes. China also does not have the Blue Water capability of the United States Navy, and can not move nor sustain the movements that would be required to keep their troops supplied. While that is going on the Ohio Class submarines that have been converted from Ballistic Missile Submarines into guided missile submarines, and are so quiet they have never been tracked by any enemy submarine on any of their patrols ever, or Improved versions of the Los Angeles class Fast-Attack submarines will sneak in and launch Tomahawk Cruise Missiles at China's bases and ships that have been set up to support the invasion. Marine Corps fighters from Iwakuni, along with Air Force fighters from Kadena Air Base on Okinawa, or Misawa in Japan, would be launching around the clock air strikes on Harbors on the Chinese mainland, and shipping leaving from and returning to the Chinese mainland.
The Chinese Army can't do hit and run tactics because they have established bases, we know where they are at, and we can send B-1Bs, B-2As, F/A-22As, and F-117As to strike these locations quickly. Remember China doesn't have the Carriers, nor the Aerial refueling capability to successfully gain Air Superiority, so their air defense would depend on the ability to quickly set up SAM sites, and hope they can pick up on our newest generation of stealth aircraft. Now since China can not launch aircraft to protect their troops, non-stealth aircraft such as the F-15E Strike Eagle, F/A-18E/F Hornet, and AV-8B Harrier II will be able to strike on moving Chinese Ground Troops with relative impunity, as well as the AH-64A Apache, AH-64D Longbow Apache, and AH-1W Super Cobra will be able to use the mountains very effectively as cover to launch Hellfire missile attacks, and to my knowledge the Hellfire missile has never missed its target in combat, and destroy Chinese Armor and troop carriers. While at the same time M1A1, and M1A2 Abrams Main Battle tanks will be rushing to the front lines, and with their far superior armor will pick off Chines Armor from distances of over 2 miles, much further then the Chinese can even think about hitting our tanks. Also our Javelin Anti-Tank missile is capable of taking out our own Abrams tanks, so the Chinese wouldn't stand a chance, and with the fire and forget capability of the Javelin, the crews can launch the missile and immediately take off and get behind cover before the Chinese troops can react.
B-2A and B-1B Bombers, from the center of the United States and using tanker support from Japan, would fly around the Chinese forces and using the JDAM GPS guided munition would strike high value military targets in Beijing and Hong Kong.
The US military is very decentralized and can perform all of these actions with only the President saying "Go." Each of the Generals and Admirals in each of the seperate areas would be able to respond, and counter basically on their own with very little guidance from Washington.
All of that together with the fact that we are fighting on our home turf makes for a very big disadvantage for the Chinese military. The Chinese would end up low on supplies, which will stop any offensive, and soon overwhelmed by US troops on thier home turf, and beaten back into the Pacific Ocean where the Navy will be launching cruise missiles at the retreating forces.
Yella02-I promise I will return to you in one piece and this will stay up until I am safely home
ok ok I know that china couldnt even make it to the states anyways and like it was stated before they dont have any Carriers, nor the Aerial refueling capability to make anywhere close to the states for that matter and also even if they did make it to the states there will be many gangs.rednecks would kill them in a heart beat and also did u ever thought that they can release the worstest inmates from jail to kill them Chinese if they made it to the states.
Opening Soon Kustom J's
Great, another post full of bravado about we'd use this bomb or that tank or the other plane. I will agree that the US has the best, most advanced weapons, planes, boats, subs, tanks, bb guns, whatever if you'll stop listing them like it's supposed to be impressive.
None of the equipment you've listed could prevent terrorist cells from accomplishing feats of great distruction which opens the door for other offensives. It's how we were able to overthrow the Iraq government, but we called them "small strategic strikes", not "terrorist cell activity". The Iraqi news reported our initial actions as terrorism, it just depends on your point of view.
You've stated that China can't form an offensive without large groups of people involved, but our troops can be deployed just from the president saying "go".
I'm confused, I thought China has the dictator and we have a democracy.
You've also stated that China couldn't use terrorist cells. But with the obvious success of terrorist cells against us, it would be reasonable to believe that any country that wanted to crush us would start with that as their number one tactic.
So back to my offensive. You've driven the Chinese back to their ships and blown them out of the water. I've sacrificed a pawn, you've put all your pieces on the offensive.
In the mean time, the smaller strikes have continued. Sewer bombs have become common, destroying the ability to remove waste and major cities are becoming uninhabitable cess pools. Manhattan is a ghost town because it has become too septic to breathe the air. A truck bomb similar to Oklahoma went off on the golden gate bridge and part of it falls.
Seeing our country in turmoil, other nations (such as Iran and it's new leadership) decide to take a few pokes at the stumbling giant and impliment a few terrorist actions of their own. Do you really believe that the people of Vietnam forgot what a mess we made of their country a few decades ago? I'm sure they'd take a jab or two at our expense. How about that nice Korean government, haven't we shat in their back yards too?
Eventually we will be beaten from the inside out, which will open the door for invasion. Not because we have inferior weapons, but because we have areas of weakness.
Your move. How are you going to eliminate an unseen, unknown enemy that is destroying my way of life?
John Wilken
2002 Cavalier
2.2 Vin code 4
Auto
First of all, let me correct myself, I did mis-state one point, the Marine Corps is constantly on 24 hour alert and can move with nothing more then the President saying "Go." The President does have to ask Congress to use the Army, Air Force and Navy, however in this situation Congress will have allowed it. I'm not trying to list our gear like it's impressive, I'm telling you what is going to be used and in what capacity it is going to be used in, it's a big part of military planning.
How are the terrorists going to operate, because as I've said the National Guard is operating throughout the country, while the Active Forces are driving back the Chinese, in a situation like this, either Martial Law has been enforced or civilains have been moved out of the way in order to limit civilain casualities. Curfews have been put in place in every major US city, and there are active night patrols by the Reserve units in the area, this has already been in place since we found out the Chinese were on the offensive, Congress has authorized it, and it is a temporary action until we have recovered. The borders have been shut down, so no new terrorist cells are getting into the country, and with constant patrols and the amount of Reserve and National Guard units on our home turf it will be very difficult, not impossible, for anyone to operate, you can compare this to Iraq in the way that the roles would be switched, we would be able to move around our cities to get rid of the enemy, and the enemy would not be able to move freely throughout our cities. China's Army has not only been beaten, but they no longer have any leadership due to the constant airstrikes that will continue until China surrenders. Now with no leadership, and no way to communicate, the Chinese troops have no other option but to surrender.
You never accounted for the fact that, again this is a Government sponsored attack, we don't have the capability to get HumInt on a terrorist cell, we have HumInt in the Chinese government, with all the moving parts for this operation, there would have been a leak somewhere, it's human nature. We would have had an idea that something was up, and everything you just said would have been a moot point.
Yella02-I promise I will return to you in one piece and this will stay up until I am safely home
I give up.
You know everything, our government has ears everywhere, we can't be hurt by anyone at anytime, we are gods. And we have FG589 Supersonic fart generators that can fly to China and break wind on them before they detect us. But the Chinese only have small paddle boats armed with slingshots. Small slingshots. It's also much farther for the Chinese military to come to our country than it is for the American military to go to China.
We are a nation of people who can exist without electricity, food, water, gasoline or sewage systems. If we lost any or all of those systems from a foreign strategic strike, we would immediately know who it was, because our government has spys everywhere. But we wouldn't stop these attacks, because living on American soil has made us all superheros.
Because our government has such a great system of spys, we knew about 9/11 months in advance, even before Osama had the idea. We also have a full team of psychics scattered throughout the world. Our government didn't try to stop those people because America is so strong we didn't need to.
And to further our greatness, nothing in America is flamable. No water supply can be poisoned either. Bullets bounce off our chests without even tearing our shirts. The only threat to the American public is tainted Tylenol caplets.
</sarcasm>
John Wilken
2002 Cavalier
2.2 Vin code 4
Auto
9/11=terrorist action, we can not get human intelligence into terrorist cells
Your Scenario=Government action, we have human intelligence inside governments, especially someone like China
That is a huge difference. You came up with some good ideas, I'll give you that, but you tied everything into a very centralized government, which makes a big difference between what happened in the 9/11 attacks and what you are describing.
Now if a terrorist cell acted on its own with no governmental input, you don't need as many people if their are no government ties, such as 9/11, and then a foreign power jumped on the opportunity, entirely different story. What you're describing is a Government operation from the beginning, which always involves more people then you think is necessary.
Yella02-I promise I will return to you in one piece and this will stay up until I am safely home
Taetsch Z24 wrote:I was having a Conversation with other Marines within PMO, and we were debating if China could go head to head with the US.
I think thay could, how ever i dont think thay could pull off an invasion ( suscessfull ) of the US.
any one else?
Chris
do u people who are the puppets for the gov't think of anything else besides war related material? i would be more afraid of taiwon, they are the ones with all the technology....
1.) Taiwan is an ally of ours and 2.) They don't have the military might to attack anyone.
We think about other things then war, you just don't hear about it.
Yella02-I promise I will return to you in one piece and this will stay up until I am safely home
John Wilken wrote: It's also much farther for the Chinese military to come to our country than it is for the American military to go to China.
actually, it is further for the chineese to come to america than the other way around, in a sense.
we can easily launch airstrikes deep into chinese soil without even being detected, they can't do that to us
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Quote:
China, who hasn't claimed responsibility for anything yet, offers to send aid. A convoy of cargo ships arrives with a military escort (to protect the Chinese cargo ships).
Sounds like they'll be wiped out where they land... as soon as the first Chinese soldier steps out of the "cargo ship" the truth will be known... and by the time the Chinese disembarked and organized and consolidated they would have possession of ONE city... and a fleet of ships big enough to put ashore 50000 men even is HUGE! Remember D-day? It was the largest fleet in history to put ashore a faily small force... the Chinese troops would get there, but they would need support weapons and supplies... and a fleet of 1000 transports for "aid" is kind of suspicious don't you think??????
Quote:
You know everything, our government has ears everywhere, we can't be hurt by anyone at anytime, we are gods. And we have FG589 Supersonic fart generators that can fly to China and break wind on them before they detect us. But the Chinese only have small paddle boats armed with slingshots. Small slingshots. It's also much farther for the Chinese military to come to our country than it is for the American military to go to China.
Quote:
We are a nation of people who can exist without electricity, food, water, gasoline or sewage systems. If we lost any or all of those systems from a foreign strategic strike, we would immediately know who it was, because our government has spys everywhere. But we wouldn't stop these attacks, because living on American soil has made us all superheros.
Congratulations, you just lost the debate... reverting to the extreme quotes above you ran out of good things to say...
Why would your scenario happen? Why would the Chinese want to emulate the 9-11 attacks which were inspired by events in the MUSLIM world, AND are regarded as evil by most of the world? Talk about making yourself look bad... why would Russia or any Western nation support a terrorist state? China would have more enemies than just the US in that case.
If they were stupid enough to pull off your "Phase 1", the US would close the borders and security measures and military presence would increase exponentially... if the Chinese tried "Phase 2", you dont think they would all succeed? Most would fail actually... then the US would try more extreme measures, as in screening any Chinese person and maybe even interning Chinese people... after all of the terrorist strikes the US security would be air-tight, the borders would be closed, and the military would be at full alert. By then the CIA and intelligence would link China to the attacks (which would be committed by Chinese in your case so it would be easy to assume this anyway!). The Chinese would be walking into a miltary disaster by sending a huge, ESCORTED fleet... come on... escorted aid fleets... you think we are stupid?
The US is just as clever and intelligent as the Chinese, and all of the miltary options Saint said would overwhelm them
guys i think the next war we go into is again is against n.korea
Opening Soon Kustom J's
Whoa, that whole post was a quote mess but I think I can find your responses in there...
Say the Chinese did attack using terrorist tactics the US couldn't weed out everybody, but they would prevent these teams from carrying out their missions... we would have so much security following any such attack (which in your scenario is hundreds!) and the military would not let anybody within 100 yards of strategic or economic areas. It would be post-9/11 times a million. You remember after 9-11 when they put roadblocks around government buildings and screened everyone entering large buildings... if the Chinese attempted this, they may succeed the first time but they wouldnt the second time. If they tried these tactics over and over again, we'd be wise to them and they would be the ones taking losses, not us. And the numbers of men you think would be needed would be far more than 12 if you want them to stop the US economy... more like a small army!
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China would take us over the same way we beat Iraq. The US took over Iraq by using terrorist bombings, but we called them "small strategic strikes". The US took out communications, power supplies, and a few signifigant roads around known military bases. After their infrastructure lost cohesiveness, we sent in ground troops.
While I wouldn't compare our strikes with terrorist bombings (they knew ours were coming, we didnt target civilians, and we hit only miltary and leadership targets) I'll ignore that part. I don't know why you would lump the US military, who is doing the best it can to minimize civilian losses, with cowardly terrorists who strap a bomb to their chest ESPECIALLY to kill civilians... are you an American? Do you think 9-11 was just?
Back on point, the Chinese would not take us over... they may hurt us but they need an army to secure stuff they damage. Once we wipe out their "special teams" they will have nothing to continue the fight. We will repair our infrastructure and economy, we will not collapse like a house of cards if our homeland is attacked... look at history, did England collapse during the Blitz? Look how many tons of bombs we dropped on Japan and Germany and they still fought... we needed an ARMY and air power to defeat them... China cannot fullfill the second part of the invasion, they may be able to hit us but they cant beat us without weapons...
To finish, we can take a beating and keep our strategic mind... a bunch of terrorist attacks would only temporarily hurt us... how do u assume the Chinese could keep a flow of attacks going? How can they reinforce these teams? Do you think the US populace and military is going to let these teams attack without pause? Do you think if the terrorists on 9-11 had hijacked more planes later in the day they would have succeeded? Hell no they would have been shot down or overpowered, or not taken off at all! Thats my answer to the terrorist question, the more you try and do it the less successful you are over time because you lose the element of surprise!
Terrorists and an ARMY are two complete different things John. And let me ask you this
should these Chinese super terrorists hi jack planes and re-do 9/11 Why would we not do anything to retaliate ? I know Bush is an idiot but do you really think given his track record of shoot first shoot some more and then if you think someones still alive re-load and shoot all over do you actually believe he wouldn't put planes in the air with bombs in tow ? And why do you think we'd just stand around going "Duh look at all the China men running around ! I wunder whats they may be doing ? Hey looky there ! Thats one gotts a gun ! " So now Saint, Spitfire and everyone else stop arguing because not only has John thunk up the invasion plan all by himself but hes sure that us fat, dumb, lazy Americans will just roll over and play dead when the great Yellow wave hits our western shore and washes across our country killing us all. John, wake up.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
SPITfire wrote:Whoa, that whole post was a quote mess but I think I can find your responses in there...
Sorry about that, I hit post instead of preview.
SPITfire wrote:Say the Chinese did attack using terrorist tactics the US couldn't weed out everybody, but they would prevent these teams from carrying out their missions... we would have so much security following any such attack (which in your scenario is hundreds!) and the military would not let anybody within 100 yards of strategic or economic areas. It would be post-9/11 times a million. You remember after 9-11 when they put roadblocks around government buildings and screened everyone entering large buildings...
I remember the post-9/11 security drills, which is why I've suggested "sewer bombs". Cut off the ability to remove waste water from an area and that area is uninhabitable. A man dressed as a bum pushing a shopping cart goes into an alley to "relieve himself" and drops a small bomb from his cart down a sewer. Who would give a bum taking a sh&t a second look?
Different street, different approach... A man eating a sandwhich drops his lunchbag into a public trash can. 20 minutes later that can goes "BOOM" and wipes out a busy intersection.
These activities could not be detected nor prevented. My issue is that this thread has a very blind view of exactly how vulnerable the US is to these kind of attacks, even on "high alert". I understand why Saint feels the need to pound his chest and boast of the might of the US military, but the reality is our homeland isn't as secure as most would believe.
SPITfire wrote:
Quote:
China would take us over the same way we beat Iraq. The US took over Iraq by using terrorist bombings, but we called them "small strategic strikes". The US took out communications, power supplies, and a few signifigant roads around known military bases. After their infrastructure lost cohesiveness, we sent in ground troops.
While I wouldn't compare our strikes with terrorist bombings (they knew ours were coming, we didnt target civilians, and we hit only miltary and leadership targets) I'll ignore that part. I don't know why you would lump the US military, who is doing the best it can to minimize civilian losses, with cowardly terrorists who strap a bomb to their chest ESPECIALLY to kill civilians... are you an American? Do you think 9-11 was just?
First off, I don't think 9/11 was a just action. I also don't believe our actions in Iraq were anything less than terrorism. Do you remember the first bombing? It was a meeting hall where we believed Saddam was speaking, and we bombed it into oblivion. Maybe Saint can cite which chapter of the Geneva Convention specifically prohibits the planned assassination of the leader of a country, but that's exactly what we attempted: an assassination.
SPITfire wrote:Back on point, the Chinese would not take us over... they may hurt us but they need an army to secure stuff they damage. Once we wipe out their "special teams" they will have nothing to continue the fight.
How would you eliminate someone who could be dressed as a businessman, a bum, a taxi driver... You'd have to catch them in the act. During WWII we rounded up anyone of Japanese decent and put them in interment camps to prevent any possible sabatoge/bombings. You'd have to do the same for anyone of Chinese decent to be 100% sure you've stopped them all. And you know that won't happen in our current society.
SPITfire wrote:We will repair our infrastructure and economy, we will not collapse like a house of cards if our homeland is attacked... look at history,
Yes, look at what happened right after 9/11. The general public had it's confidence in homeland security shaken. People changed how they do business and vacation. It was 5 years ago, but we speak of it like it was yesterday. One small group, one half-assed plan, and we're still effected by it.
SPITfire wrote:To finish, we can take a beating and keep our strategic mind... a bunch of terrorist attacks would only temporarily hurt us... how do u assume the Chinese could keep a flow of attacks going? How can they reinforce these teams? Do you think the US populace and military is going to let these teams attack without pause? Do you think if the terrorists on 9-11 had hijacked more planes later in the day they would have succeeded? Hell no they would have been shot down or overpowered, or not taken off at all! Thats my answer to the terrorist question, the more you try and do it the less successful you are over time because you lose the element of surprise!
Without a doubt, if there had been other terrorists attempting to hijack more planes they would have failed. But the list of other areas that we could be hurt is very long.
How would they keep the flow of attacks going? Until they were caught red handed. As long as the type, time and method of attack is varied they would continue to succeed.
John Wilken
2002 Cavalier
2.2 Vin code 4
Auto
John, let me try to surmise this--it could get long.
First off, the thing you failekd to take into account was the backlash after 9/11. Not even a fart could have leaked into the country. Also, look at how the government stalled on Katrina relief efforts. Even though you could theoretically "soften up" the U.S. with terrorist strikes, what you do is alert the guard dog to potential danger--so-to-speak, and as such, it would make it even more difficult to run an invasion.
Now, if we take this logically, China, in order to set up an invasion, with us "softened up" or not, will have to create a beachhead in which they could base operations out of the united states from. As such, you're looking at less of a 9/11 scenario, and more of a Normady scenario. The difference is, there is no wartime scenario going on, so China can't act like it's invading somewhere else. Further, if we did have terrorist attacks, and China immediately offered supplies, our homeland forces would be on full alert. Any cargo ships to enter U.S. waters would likely be boarded while still out to sea, and the coast would be blockaded. This means that the Chinese would have to use a "blitzkrieg" like attack method to gain a foothold.
Now, you're going from about 100km's max (normandy) to about 10,000 min for the trip across the Pacific. In other words, unless we were blind and they lucky, we'd see them coming miles away, and fortfy the coasts. Worse news for them, Cali has coasts that are more defended, and Oregon and to a greater extent Washington have coasts that are mostly cliffs.
Now, the best chance that China has it to coordinate the invasion with sleeper cells pulling off terrorist-like attacks elsewhere, thus divide and conquer. Being generous, that *might* get them a small beachhead somewhere in the west.
Now, assuming they have a beachhead, the amount of troops needed to sucessfully invade a country as big as the US is immense. There is really no place on the west coast that has nearly enough resources to take over--they will have to have supply lines running from China. It's the WWII submarine war all over again, except we have the technology edge this time (and unlike the Germans, who had superior technology back then, we actually did a good job of choking off supply routes to and from Japan). China would find it hard to maintain supply convoys to feed it's troops on this side of the world, *and* to bring over the mechanized units necesary to expand it's foothold.
Now, they have a daunting task--make it over the Coast/Olympic ranges, the Cascade/Sierra Nevada ranges, and the Rocky Mountains. Also consider that you have 5 major passes, and about 15 minor ones to get through--and likely, they would not have the type of airbases necessary to have planes like the C5 that could air-drop tanks over the range. Meaning? We could hold off their entire army with a lot less troops just by the lay of the land itself by jamming all the passes full of anti-tank weapons.
Not to mention, you still have the midwest and the east, with full military bases. China would be lucky to have an airport cabale of launching anything rather large--and would have to rely on carrier support. Without some serious antisubmarine warefare, it would be Hogan's Alley for all of our sub captains.
Logistically, it's nigh-impossible such an attempt would succeed.
Now, if China did want to take over, their best bet would be luring Canada, Mexico, or managing to get one of the western states to defect to their side, and slowly use waning support in the U.S. government to gain a foothold politically....but i doubt that would happen.
My $.02
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they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
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I remember the post-9/11 security drills, which is why I've suggested "sewer bombs". Cut off the ability to remove waste water from an area and that area is uninhabitable. A man dressed as a bum pushing a shopping cart goes into an alley to "relieve himself" and drops a small bomb from his cart down a sewer. Who would give a bum taking a sh&t a second look?
They could try stuff like this but again there are at least 2 problems... first is manpower... the Chinese would needs ten of thousands to hit targets as small as sewers and intersections... there are thousands of cities and millions of targets in the size range you state and if the Chinese are to do this convertly, they will need thousands of special forces... and the whole idea of special forces is to go unnoticed and the Chinese face is highly recognizable. Second, if a few sewer attacks succeed I'm sure police, military, and even civilian forces would seal off these areas to anybody that looks Chinese... I'll get back to this "profiling later".
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First off, I don't think 9/11 was a just action. I also don't believe our actions in Iraq were anything less than terrorism. Do you remember the first bombing? It was a meeting hall where we believed Saddam was speaking, and we bombed it into oblivion. Maybe Saint can cite which chapter of the Geneva Convention specifically prohibits the planned assassination of the leader of a country, but that's exactly what we attempted: an assassination.
While the issue of assassination is debateable, I think they were trying to remove the cause of the war before it started. Would you rather have taken Saddam out first and avoided this mess of a war? I don't think anyone would have minded if we killed Saddam that first day
Better one than thousands... sounds like good math!
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How would you eliminate someone who could be dressed as a businessman, a bum, a taxi driver... You'd have to catch them in the act. During WWII we rounded up anyone of Japanese decent and put them in interment camps to prevent any possible sabatoge/bombings. You'd have to do the same for anyone of Chinese decent to be 100% sure you've stopped them all. And you know that won't happen in our current society.
In the scanario you are pushing, I'm sure our society would do the same thing as in the 1940's. Look at after 9-11, when there was discriminatio nand even violence against Arabs and Muslims. This was 2 ATTACKS! If the Chinese managed hundreds of attacks, do you think Chinese would be safe i nthe US. Nope. In this extreme scenario, we would have no problem rounding them all up in camps until the problem was stopped. Nobody would complain as long as our security was under threat! Desperate times require desperate measures. And again a Chinese person is not easy to spot.. any Chinese person trying to enter a sewer or office building would be stopped... its like Mid East suicide bombings, there would be checkpoints everywhere and profiling would be common since only Chinese people would be carrying out these attacks!
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Yes, look at what happened right after 9/11. The general public had it's confidence in homeland security shaken. People changed how they do business and vacation. It was 5 years ago, but we speak of it like it was yesterday. One small group, one half-assed plan, and we're still effected by it.
Yes, because it was by far the most grandiose and terrible act of terorism is world history, and it happened to 3 of the most famous buildings in the nation. Of course we are going to remember it and never forget it!
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How would they keep the flow of attacks going? Until they were caught red handed. As long as the type, time and method of attack is varied they would continue to succeed.
They would be caught red-handed within hours of the attack's beginning... one would fail or their bomb would fail to detonate and police would capture a Chinese man and the whole plan would be obvious... all people leave trails and investigation would find papers or a computer or some document to implement ChinA... then the bombs will fall on China.
Keeper: I agree with that whole post.
The Chinese would have trouble supporting an invasion first of all. Second, they will not be able to give airsupport or naval support and the US would have complete air uperiority. Third, they would be easily stopped in the mtns by our superior weaponry. A few Abrams in the passes would stop Chinese armor moving east and US forces would just drive on each flank and destory the invaders. Not to mention the millions that would die in transports in the Pacific.
John Wilken wrote:
First off, I don't think 9/11 was a just action. I also don't believe our actions in Iraq were anything less than terrorism. Do you remember the first bombing? It was a meeting hall where we believed Saddam was speaking, and we bombed it into oblivion. Maybe Saint can cite which chapter of the Geneva Convention specifically prohibits the planned assassination of the leader of a country, but that's exactly what we attempted: an assassination.
i don't see how strategic airstrikes against military targets is concidered terrorism.
and yes the geneva convention prohibits assassination...however saddam hussein and those people at that meeting were all memebers of the military, and as such, valid targets to kill, officers are valid targets.
You'll never touch God's hand
You'll never taste God's breath
Because you'll never see the second coming
Life's too short to be focused on insanity
I've seen the ways of God
I'll take the devil any day
Hail Satan
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It wasn't an assassination attempt because it was the first night of the war, and therefore it is considered a decapitation strike, which is authorized, in fact it's the ultimate goal of any war.
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Saint wrote:It wasn't an assassination attempt because it was the first night of the war, and therefore it is considered a decapitation strike, which is authorized, in fact it's the ultimate goal of any war.
So if there was a country on the planet earth that would dare declaire war on the US, they could attempt a "decapitation strike" on the White House, because military meetings are held there, and be operating within the Geneva Convention?
Mikec2003 wrote:
i don't see how strategic airstrikes against military targets is concidered terrorism.
We also took out electric lines, TV and radio towers, cell phone towers and shut down the water supply to Baghdad.
I would define a terrorist as a person who, by their actions, attempts to destroy the lifestyle of another culture through the covert use of force against civilian targets.
Under this definition our actions in Iraq apply as terrorism. When we launched a full scale ground attack, it ceased to be terrorism and became a conventional war.
You don't believe the people of Baghdad were told the day before that we were stopping the water supply, or notified people of electric power getting stopped? If the same happened in the US, from whatever country, we would call it "terrorism" regardless if it was a precursor to war or not.
John Wilken
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^ using that logic, the bombings of cities in every war is considered terrorism... do you consider the Blitz to be terrorism? the fire-bombing of Tokyo? the bombing of Berlin? It's called strategic bombing and has been a staple of war since the First World War. There is always collateral damage associated with bombs. They are BOMBS, thats what they do... no matter how fine-tuned we get these days there will always be losses. We never went in Iraq with the intention of harming or "changing" the Iraqi culture, just the government.
actually, we did warn the civilians to get out.
and all those targets were chosen to minimize civilian impact, its not like we blew up their powerplants, we only took out the substations and water pump facilities that mainly fed military operations. our goal is not to hurt civilians like terrorists do to us. our goal is to minimize civilian impact, and eliminate the enemy.
and yeah, if war was declared on the U.S. and they blew up the white house and killed the prez...well, i guess its a fair move.....but do you really think that during a time of war on U.S. soil that the president would be in the white house? i hardly think so.
and besides, isn't this topic on the invasion of china into the U.S. not the tactics of america VS Iraq?
oh and i really doubt china would waste the effort on a full scale assault on america. anyone with a brain knows that the best way to defeat america is economically....basically choke us out
You'll never touch God's hand
You'll never taste God's breath
Because you'll never see the second coming
Life's too short to be focused on insanity
I've seen the ways of God
I'll take the devil any day
Hail Satan
(slayer, skeleton christ, 2006)
