DanteMustDie wrote:[quote=Keeper of the Light�]The beauty of that is, whether or not you believe in god, the end result is the same--
unholysavage wrote:For one thing, the 'religion of evolution' idea was 'created' by the church to convenienty fudge its ideals and beliefs to conform to a scientifically sound theory that damaged the bible's credibility. The theory of evolution is not a religion or even a remotely religious idea - it's a scientific (biological) phenomenon that has likely existed ever since the first primitive life occurred 3.8-4.1 billion years ago on earth (and which likely also occurs on millions of other planets in the universe). Basically, the formation of the religion of evolution is the church going "if we can't beat them, join them".
I particularly love your statement that you KNOW that humans didn't evolve from 'apes'. PLEASE enlighten me as to how you obtained this ABSOLUTE fact. Is it simply because the man-made story of Adam and Eve in the bible? Need I remind you that that story was written by somebody long ago who was neither Adam, nor Eve (and certainly not any god), and who most certainly did not communicate with any of these characters? If you had said 'believe' in that sentence, that would have been OK, but to say that you KNOW completely IGNORES the enormous amount of scientific evidence (that you can hold in your very own hands and see for yourself) that demonstrates the evolution of humans from primates (including the fossil remains of the 'Taung child' and 'Lucy' amongst many others). Humans and chimpanzees have been scientifically shown to share 95% of the same DNA (more proof they are related) - can you ignore that as well? Look at George W. Bush - if that guy isn't a chimp that learned english then I paid too much for my education. Most of the religious people I know accept these theories, and rather than rejecting them they instead warped/reinterpreted the bible in a futile effort to reaffirm their beliefs (which is exactly why your 'religion of evolution' came about).
That is something I cannot understand with people like you, Chris. You find it perfectly OK to tell others that they have absolutely no choice but to believe your quite proof-less beliefs, but blatantly ignore tangible evidence that contradicts the 'truth' as told by an obsolete book that contains more errors and lies than most fiction novels. You mentioned that you were narrowminded and relied on your education until 1998. The whole purpose of post-secondary education is to teach people how to think for themselves (and not to memorize facts etc.). From what I have read, it is quite obvious that education failed you somehow. You're not even narrow-minded anymore, you've basically closed your mind completely to anything that might alter your beliefs. BTW, you believe in a deity, so by definition you ARE religious.
I admire your conviction, but question your rationale behind your comments. I look forward to hearing your response to this.
Chris Crossont wrote:
Chris wrote:Most prefer the lie as it is perceived to be easier
Madjack wrote:Like I said before, building an engine like ours (2.2 or 2200) is a painstaking chore , since there is so few custom made parts. It's frustrating to me too, but that's what I like about doing this engine, it's the challenge.
Chris Crossont wrote:For me to say that there are other ways to heaven would also say that there is no point to my faith. Truth is exclusive and not inclusive. Jesus Christ is the only deity that had witnessess to His miracles, His death and His resurection. Those proofs can be found outside of the Bible as a matter of public records from those times.
Do you believe that George Washington existed? There are no pictures/films of him nor is there any recordings of his voice. The only thing available is books that speak of him. George Washington is just one of thousands of historical figures that were around only during times of written history and not photographed or videotaped history. Even then, there are those that question the moon landing and the Nazi Holocaust.
If you want to question one then you must question them all. All lies are eventually exposed. Do you not think that it is odd that someone could have created or fabricated a story almost 3500 years ago and had others that he never met generations later go along with it? ....and keep it uniform and contradiction free? Do you think it is odd that one man fulfilled over 500 prophecies that were written almost 700 years before His birth? The most odd thing of all is the men that were with Jesus (again, check public record) were willing to die for the sake of their mission. I would not die for a hoax or a joke no matter what and neither would any other sane person. Like I said, you do not have to believe me. Believing me gets you nothing but believing God gains you everything.
The best part is that the truth will be learned by everyone soon enough. By the way, science has done nothing to prove anything contrary to the Bible. It has however made many discoveries supporting the bible. That is not to say that there are not people trying to disprove God as that would then give them license to live the perverse life they want to live without worry of penalty.
unholysavage wrote:Keeper, thanks for the clarification. Very intelligent post, and I agree with your way of thinking completely!
Chris Crossont wrote:For me to say that there are other ways to heaven would also say that there is no point to my faith. Truth is exclusive and not inclusive. Jesus Christ is the only deity that had witnessess to His miracles, His death and His resurection. Those proofs can be found outside of the Bible as a matter of public records from those times.
Do you believe that George Washington existed? There are no pictures/films of him nor is there any recordings of his voice. The only thing available is books that speak of him. George Washington is just one of thousands of historical figures that were around only during times of written history and not photographed or videotaped history. Even then, there are those that question the moon landing and the Nazi Holocaust.
If you want to question one then you must question them all. All lies are eventually exposed. Do you not think that it is odd that someone could have created or fabricated a story almost 3500 years ago and had others that he never met generations later go along with it? ....and keep it uniform and contradiction free? Do you think it is odd that one man fulfilled over 500 prophecies that were written almost 700 years before His birth? The most odd thing of all is the men that were with Jesus (again, check public record) were willing to die for the sake of their mission. I would not die for a hoax or a joke no matter what and neither would any other sane person. Like I said, you do not have to believe me. Believing me gets you nothing but believing God gains you everything.
The best part is that the truth will be learned by everyone soon enough. By the way, science has done nothing to prove anything contrary to the Bible. It has however made many discoveries supporting the bible. That is not to say that there are not people trying to disprove God as that would then give them license to live the perverse life they want to live without worry of penalty.
Truth is something proveable and repeatable; scientists have a word for it - it's called FACT. Sorry, but you don't have any of these to support your argument, just your faith (which is inherently unproveable).
I never once mentioned that I didn't think Jesus ever existed. I did say multiple times that there is absolutely no proof that any god/deity/omnipresent entity exists. Period. Get your argument straight.
Exactly what does George Washington or other historical figures have to do with this argument? We weren't arguing the existence of historical figures at all, including jesus. I do however question whether or not everything that was mentioned in historical texts actually happened. Everything that has been written in the bible has been written by people who were neither a god nor jesus himself. They may have sat next to him while he spoke, but you and I both know that if we waited for just 1 hour after reading each others rants that we wouldn't be able to repeat it word for word, nevermind properly communicate the true meaning of it (if we even understood it in the first place). You argue that the bible is the 'word of god' itself when it most certainly is not. Try playing broken telephone once (and at the same time translate what was said 3-4 times into a different language), and then ask yourself if the mainly oral passages that make up your book of absolute truth were truly transcribed flawlessly. Any semi-intelligent person would laugh at you if you said yes.
I'm a scientist, so if I want to question just one then I will question just one. Why not? Questioning something is how people learn, and that's something the church has frowned upon throughout history. As for people creating or fabricating a story 3500 years ago, Chris, I urge you to go out and take some upper-year archeology courses at your local college/university. Archeologists have very good evidence from cave paintings, figurines and altars (animal/human sacrificial evidence) that ancient humans (by this I mean >20000 years ago) believed in some kind of deity/supernatural being. 3500 years ago humanity had absolutely NO knowledge of nature and the forces (by this I mean gravity etc) that control it. The concept of a god was only created to try and explain the (previously) unexplainable, and to provide some kind of comfort that death isn't the end-point to existence. It wasn't until the 1700-1800s that science started to break free of religious control and truly question our surroundings from a logical, objective point of view. Think about it for a minute - if you existed 2000 years ago near Vesuvius (volcano), you would be told that the eruption that wiped out most of your village was god's fury upon sinners (or some similar form of crap), and there would be absolutely nobody there who could say otherwise. Today you could still believe that if you want, even though scientists understand very well how volcanoes form, and why they erupt (internal earth processes (including pressure buildup/release, heat etc) associated with special geologic circumstances (ie crustal plate boundaries, faults, formation of mantle plumes etc.). The wrath of a deity doesn't enter the equation - the stupidity of people willing to live beside a potentially destructive volcano certainly does. More so, much of science is reproduceable in laboratories, whereas god can't be proven either way.
You can speak of prophecies all you wish - by all means, start up your time machine and take me back and show me. It's all based on things in a book written by humans who would have been desperate to find anything to confirm their religious beliefs. Here, I'll give you a prophecy - some day humans will walk upon other planets. Even better, there's life on other planets (with many likely containing life much more advanced than humans). The first one is pretty much null seeing that there's a manned expedition to Mars planned for 2007. It will be interesting to see how religions deal with the day extra-terrestrial life is discovered, or when live is created artificially in a lab (from the building blocks of life, not eggs/sperm or cloning). You talk about a resurrection. You do know that there are several other documented cases of people who presumed dead who woke up while in the grave, right? These weren't cases of re-animation, but of doctors/priests who declared someone dead when they were actually still alive. It's happened more than once, so why wouldn't it have been possible that a mistake like that didn't happen 2000 years ago? There is a possibility, even if you are too stubborn to recognise it.
The statement about jesus' followers being willing to die for him was truly pointless. Turn on your TV and watch your CNN and even you will hear of reports of Iraqi suicide bombers blowing themselves up for the sake of martyrdom (ie THEIR RELIGIOUS BELIEFS). People in China died in Tienamin square for their beliefs on human rights (no religion involved there). If someone believes in a cause strongly enough, anything is possible. My grandfather and his brothers went off to fight in WWII (and were willing to die) because they believed in keeping Canada and it's future safe. You may not be willing to die for a hoax (that is IF you are even capable of recognizing one), but you're completely willing to believe in something that cannot be proven to even exist.
Your statement that science has done nothing to prove anything contrary to the bible is quite interesting. Hmm, the bible stated that the earth was the centre of the universe, and that the sun revolved around it....wrong. Autogenesis....very wrong. The real sticker is that whenever science shows something in the bible to be incorrect, theologians simply go and reinterpret a passage to give it whatever meaning serves them best. Of course science has made discoveries that prove parts of the bible - it's just that none of these discoveries provide you with any proof that a god exists (which is the entire basis of your beliefs). Scientists don't go out of their way (usually) to try and disprove any god - it's just that their findings do nothing to support one.
BTW, you don't have to believe in any god to live a full and rich life that is both moral and just. I'm not a criminal, pedophile, rapist, liar, I pay my taxes, I love my girlfriend very much, and I like who I am. The only difference between you and I is that I'm able to think for myself and not close my mind to things other possibilities, even if they make me uncomfortable.
You live your life of ignorance if it makes your life complete, and I'll happily go on living my "perverse" life.
unholysavage wrote:I agree with you Fallen Angel, but you have to be careful. There are some religions (Hinduism for example) that worship MULTIPLE gods. In fact, Hinduism is considered the "religion of a million gods". There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but it throws a wrench into the discussion of ONE god existing which is the same god for all religions.
Chris Crossont wrote:[quote=��Fallen Angel��]Well what about this Chris... (not KOTL)since my sn can't be quoted right, my post ends here
IF there is only one true way to "heaven"... one true "path"... and IF God wants all of his "children" to be saved... why would he allow other "paths" to exist to begin with? Why are there so many different religions?
You can't sit there and say that the other religions are there to exist because of Satan, or that there is only ONE true way to Heaven. Chris, from what I've read, it seems you are saying your personal beliefs are the one and only way to "the holy land" (i.e. Heaven).
If God created man... and wanted people to follow your particular path and that was the only way to Heaven... then why were there many different religions in place long LONG before Christianity or Christian based religions existed? If God wanted everyone to follow that ONE path... why wasn't Christianity in place from the beginning?
I am by no means dogging you or your beliefs, but I would like you to give me an answer to that.
I personally, do not believe for one minute, that if there is a Heaven, that there is only ONE way to get there. That would doom billions of people in the present, and more billions of people from the past, and if God loves all of his children equally and that is true, there has to be more than ONE EXACT path you can follow.
I think it's moreso that "God" or whatever you want to call him, just asks for certain basic things, to live your life the best way you can, love your fellow man, and respect one another and their personal beliefs. I think that no matter what way you look at it, God, Buddha, Allah, whatever,... is indeed the same "entity" with a different name...
For example... the "yin and yang" belief. There is good in every bad, and there is bad in every good. Nothing is black and white. There are plenty of grey areas. Everyone has a dark and light side, and variants in between.
I do not believe in Satan. Satan, IMHO, is a scapegoat. Something to blame all the bad things and the bad actions of persons on... to make oneself feel better. Humans were given free will. It is an individual's own actions that are or can be bad, and no one can be blamed but htemselves.
People in this day and age, are always looking for someone or something else to blame. Look at the kid who was playing GTA and his parents were blaming the game for him going out, stealing a car, and killing people. It's not the game's fault he did that... it was his own bad choices. Then there's the kids who did Columbine. People were blaming a video game, music, etc for what they did. The video game or music they listened to did not make them do those things. By your definition probably, the music I listen to could be called "evil"... I don't go out and do "evil" things. If anything else, I get walked over all the time by trying to help people. I got raped trying to help someone who had said their car had broken down. I in no way asked for that to happen... or did anything to deserve what happened. (This was August 25th, 2001)
None of my beliefs can be classified into one religion. I've read up on numerous differnent religions to a point, and there is things in each probably that I can believe, some in all I can't. There's also similarities between different religions also. Either way you look at it, each religion is in place for one reason or another, mostly to get to the "Holy land" when you pass on. I don't think you die and go right to Heaven if you've lived one good life. If heaven is so wonderful, why would it be so easy to get into? I think you're here, there's certain things we are supposed to do, learn, accomplish, etc. You don't accomplish those things... guess what you've earned the right to try it again! (i.e. Reincarnation). I also believe (forgive me for the wording, I have a splitting headache) "Do as you will, as long as you harm none" (that includes yourself). "Judge yet not lest ye be judged"...
NO matter what you call or how you look at "God"... (take the ancient Eqyptians for example)... they believed in multiple gods... Wicca, they belive there's a Goddess and a God... then there's Buddha, Allah.... I belive they are all basically how a particular individual sees the same being. Is God male? Is God female? Is God white? Is God black? Is God Chinese? I could go on and one... what it boils down to... it is how YOU see "God" personally.
One thing that always gets me though... why in most Christian religions is Jesus perceived as being white? No white people lived in that area back in that time... so why is he depicted as being white in pictures in the Bible??? Jesus was not white...
I could go on and on about religious speculations all day... I'm waiting to see what you have to say Chris.
Keep in mind... I was NOT doggin you or your beliefs. I still respect your beliefs and such just the same
DanteMustDie wrote:I say we give up on him. Let him "suffer" (as he himself says he likes to). Some people just aren't open-minded enough to think for themselves in life and be free of guidelines that supposedly lead to salvation (BTW what is salvation and how could it possibly be better than our current life ?).
jackalope ( a.k.a. the prick ) wrote:thers a preist and a rabbi walking down the street and they see a 9 year old boy walking toward them. The preist says to the rabbi " Hey lets f--k him " The rabbi says
" out of what? "
Chris Crossont wrote:I may not be the one to lead you guys to salvation but I at least I got you guys thinking. The seed has been planted.
Have a great weekend everyone! It has been great chit-chatting this week.
Chris Crossont wrote:[quote=¤§Fallen Angel§¤]OH here's another question Chris...
Why in the Bible is there no mention of Dinosaurs... or that there may be other "beings"...
I can't say there are "aleins"... but wouldn't it be naieve to think that we are the only form of live in the universe???